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Sirius1
11-09-2006, 08:54 PM
I have taken the class but I don't recall what was mentioned regarding this...

If a person falls in love with someone and wants to find out more about their character, can he/she go and directly have a friendly conversation with the beloved so long as its not done in seclusion? All for the sake of getting married...

PS--->I haven't come across any hadith or ayah that prohibits conversation between opposite genders.

Perhaps someone can help me out...:) I will make dua for you (if you do).

hassanm
11-09-2006, 09:32 PM
“O you who believe! Do not follow the footsteps of the Shaytaan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaytaan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil” [24.21]

Sirius1
11-09-2006, 09:36 PM
Alright...that's an answer to...What part of my question? Can you please expand? Jazakallah.

Sirius1
11-09-2006, 09:40 PM
Okay...maybe I used the wrong adverb...by friendly I don't mean...flirting...

Dua'a
11-09-2006, 11:12 PM
assalamu alaikum warahmatu Allah

just skimming thru the notes, i noticed the shaykh mention the following when discussing the topic of "looking at one's Perspective Bride":

Legal Ruling is mustahab. then we mentioned:

Reason of Permissibility:

to identify physical attraction
to identify mental similarities
will help in making a decision

then, mental similarities can't be distinguished by merely looking at him or her. is usually done after discussion

then he mentioned conditions of permissibility, of that mentioned was:
as long as wali is present, it doesn't matter how many times the meeting is done.

However, we later discussed the different ways to see the prospective and one was the casual setting without knowledge of the spouse which is permissible except by imam ahmad.

sorry..i have a feeling it might not be the exact answer you were looking for...but this is what i understood!

wallahu a3lam..

Dua'a
11-09-2006, 11:19 PM
conversation with the beloved so long as its not done in seclusion? that's what i don't understand...
is having a friend/sister present considered okay..or is the wali a must?? everytime the shaykh mentioned the "3rd" present person..he never said 3rd...he always said wali (or did just not catch the other times?!)

maybe some haadians/wedadians can help!

hafethakum allah
wassalam

~Oum AbdurRahman~
11-11-2006, 11:03 AM
As-salaamoualaikoum wa rahmtAllah,

This is a fatawa question that needs ijtihaad.
I recommend you go and look up on Islamqa dot com for the answer insha'Allah, until (or if) the sheikh has time to answer, how ever normally the forums aren't used for answering fataawa unfortunatley.

JezakAllah khair.

Sirius1
11-11-2006, 01:13 PM
As far as I remember and understand, we had talked about this in class...it is just something that I don't remember the answer for. I will wait for the Shaykh's reply. (Or if anyone has the answer to it, they can post it).

Walaikum As-salaam wa rahmatullah

~Oum AbdurRahman~
11-13-2006, 01:19 PM
Insha'Allah...Allah yiwafgik ya Rabbi, Ameen.:)

dhulfiqhar
11-13-2006, 06:39 PM
that's what i don't understand...
is having a friend/sister present considered okay..or is the wali a must?? everytime the shaykh mentioned the "3rd" present person..he never said 3rd...he always said wali (or did just not catch the other times?!)

maybe some haadians/wedadians can help!

hafethakum allah
wassalamAccording to my notes it has to be a Wali (i.e. can't be a female, can't be younger brother, can't be friend, etc). I'll call out to the rest of banu-salaam to fill in the gaps.

Ahmed Ali
11-13-2006, 07:28 PM
According to my notes it has to be a Wali (i.e. can't be a female, can't be younger brother, can't be friend, etc). I'll call out to the rest of banu-salaam to fill in the gaps.
This is what I have in my notes as well; the wali has to be present. And the wali should be the father, or the grandfather (preferred)

As for the sister who doesn't have a wali, the local imam can be the wali.
In this case, he should be,or is preferred to be married, and to be old.

Sirius1
11-13-2006, 08:54 PM
Jazakallah khair to everyone who has responded.


If a person falls in love with someone and wants to find out more about their character, can he/she go and directly have a friendly conversation with the beloved so long as its not done in seclusion? All for the sake of getting married...

PS--->I haven't come across any hadith or ayah that prohibits conversation between opposite genders.

Perhaps someone can help me out...:) I will make dua for you (if you do).
The bolded part of my question still remains...

dhulfiqhar
11-13-2006, 09:07 PM
I think the issue is not seclusion or non-seclusion it is the issue of the Wali. For example if you are talking to sisters/brothers regarding business, class, MSA, Masjid issues, then you do not need a wali present. However, if you intentions are regarding marriage, and you want to find out more about the person, then

a) you ask someone about them
b) have her wali present

Shaykh did say meeting in a public place such as a restraunt is still considered private/secluded. This can be related back to the hadith that says if there are two (i.e. male/female in private) the third is Shaytan. Hence, seclusion & or the absence of a wali may make them more suceptible to Shaytan and say something they should not.

Sirius1
11-13-2006, 09:13 PM
There's that hadith...where the woman came and directly proposed the Prophet (sa)...

So from what I understand...you don't need a wali for everything...ofcourse you can't talk in seclusion b/c there is a hadith regarding it...

Sirius1
11-13-2006, 09:25 PM
Shaykh did say meeting in a public place such as a restraunt is still considered private/secluded. This can be related back to the hadith that says if there are two (i.e. male/female in private) the third is Shaytan. Hence, seclusion & or the absence of a wali may make them more suceptible to Shaytan and say something they should not.
Seclusion=Absence of wali? Is that how seclusion is defined?

dhulfiqhar
11-14-2006, 07:45 AM
I guess that is one way to look at it.

ibnabeeomar
11-14-2006, 08:23 AM
There's that hadith...where the woman came and directly proposed the Prophet (sa)...

So from what I understand...you don't need a wali for everything...ofcourse you can't talk in seclusion b/c there is a hadith regarding it...i remember when shaykh yaser was explaining a woman proposing to a man, that she would tell him if you're interested, etc contact my wali.

Sirius1
11-14-2006, 11:09 AM
I guess that is one way to look at it.Well, if we generally define it that way...then a man and a woman would be considered "secluded" whenever they have a useful conversation and no one is particularly interested in finding out what it is. Examples of such cases would be...the MSA committees...in the masjid...in the classroom...in the professor's office...between lab partners...the list goes on...

But I think I understand that its different when one in interested in knowing the individual in-person...(I have to think about this more to see if I have more questions).
Regardless: The Hadith doesn't say she came with her wali to propose the Prophet...i remember when shaykh yaser was explaining a woman proposing to a man, that she would tell him if you're interested, etc contact my wali.From what I know...that woman in the hadith didn't say to the Prophet...If you are interested in me, then go to my wali. She directly proposed him. And he didn't tell her that she was doing something wrong...Volume 7, Book 62, Number 24:
Narrated Sahl bin Sad As-Sa'idi: A woman came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have come to give you myself in marriage (without Mahr)." Allah's Apostle looked at her. He looked at her carefully and fixed his glance on her and then lowered his head. When the lady saw that he did not say anything, she sat down. A man from his companions got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! If you are not in need of her, then marry her to me." The Prophet said, "Have you got anything to offer?" The man said, "No, by Allah, O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet said (to him), "Go to your family and see if you have something." The man went and returned, saying, "No, by Allah, I have not found anything." Allah's Apostle said, "(Go again) and look for something, even if it is an iron ring." He went again and returned, saying, "No, by Allah, O Allah's Apostle! I could not find even an iron ring, but this is my Izar (waist sheet)." He had no rida. He added, "I give half of it to her." Allah's Apostle said, "What will she do with your Izar? If you wear it, she will be naked, and if she wears it, you will be naked." So that man sat down for a long while and then got up (to depart). When Allah's Apostle saw him going, he ordered that he be called back. When he came, the Prophet said, "How much of the Quran do you know?" He said, "I know such Sura and such Sura," counting them. The Prophet said, "Do you know them by heart?" He replied, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I marry her to you for that much of the Quran which you have."

dhulfiqhar
11-14-2006, 12:53 PM
But the Prophet (saw) never accepted her proposal, so the issue of the Wali never came up.

If a sister asks a brother to marry him, he doesn't need a Wali to tell her he is not interested. Only if he wants to pursue the proposal does the wali come into the picture.

I think there is something very specific you are wanting to ask. You may want to ask the Shaykh directly.

However in a nutshell, if someone wants to pursue marriage with someone and wants to get to know them better, a Wali needs to be involved. ~Walllah u Alim

Asif Alam
11-14-2006, 02:55 PM
Salaam:

I am no-one to make a concluding remark on this discussion, however, I can relate on this query/topic based on my limited understanding, insha'Allah:

Ok, so lets simulate this situation (considering the hadeeth and what I understood from Love notes class)...If I were to ask a lady (in public setting) that I am interested in marriage to her...what could be the outcome:

Since this is a closed-end query, the likely responses from the lady are to be one:

1- Verbal or physical jesture of disapproval, or the lady leaving the place. - all this means NO.
2- Silence-without disapproving, or some sort of smile, or verbal Yes.

If the response is YES, then at this time I would just ask or inform her that I will contact her Wali-family-Imam to take it further...

Ergo, the purpose of 1-1 proposal is to get an affirmation/negation or approval/disapproval of the other person for a likely marriage...further discussion has to be done with a Wali present if the answer was Yes

See in the Hadeeth quoted by the sister, Rasul Allah (sal-lal-la-hu-ale-he-wa-sal-lam) had two roles for the woman who had proposed directly to him.

a- first he was the proposee (she proposed to him directly)
b- he was the Wali (he became her wali (as the community leader/Imam) and negotiated her mahr for her with the sahabi).

So, again the converging points are -

for marriage discussion (and all that entails) a lady needs a wali to be present (and because the Wali is present, then this discussion is not in seclusion).

however, if a lady wants to show her intent or propose to a man for a marriage directly (a wali does not need to be present - but this proposal needs to happen in public setting, and not in seclusion).

Allahu Aalim

Ma'Assalaama

dhulfiqhar
11-14-2006, 03:00 PM
well said !

Sirius1
11-14-2006, 03:44 PM
Ergo, the purpose of 1-1 proposal is to get an affirmation/negation or approval/disapproval of the other person for a likely marriage...further discussion has to be done with a Wali present if the answer was Yes
Jazakallah.

Sirius1
11-14-2006, 08:28 PM
According to the Hanafi madh-hab, a wali is not needed for a marriage to be valid...correct?

~I remember this from class...just wanted to confirm...

Ahmed Ali
11-20-2006, 11:44 AM
According to the Hanafi madh-hab, a wali is not needed for a marriage to be valid...correct?

~I remember this from class...just wanted to confirm...correct, as far as I know from other sources.

However, I'm almost certain Sh Yaser didn't mention this in our class.

Sirius1
11-20-2006, 12:38 PM
As far as I remember...it was during Q/A session (in wasat)...

There could be a slight chance of me being wrong...

But I'm sure I've heard this at one of the AlMaghrib seminars (from what I remember). Wallahu Alim.

ibnabeeomar
11-20-2006, 01:12 PM
i thought he mentioned it, but its not something i wrote down. in either case if he mentioned it it was in passing not anything more than that

Sirius1
11-20-2006, 01:23 PM
in either case if he mentioned it it was in passing not anything more than thatI think it matters for people who are Hanafi...
In any case, I don't know much about this whole "school of thoughts" so I won't make further comments on the topic...but that does bring a question to my mind.

ibnabeeomar
11-20-2006, 01:27 PM
I think it matters for people who are Hanafi...
In any case, I don't know much about this whole "school of thoughts" so I won't make further comments on the topic...but that does bring a question to my mind.actually that was answered too, shaykh yaser said, "take code evolved" :)