VIDEOS: Camels Kneeling

[mnvk]

Shaykh Abdul-Bary Yahya suggested in class to find some videos of camels kneeling as mentioned in the hadith, and then to post them on the forum, so here are the three videos I found.

Video 1 - tourist gets off camel (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-896388294652140510&q=camel+dismounting+khuri+thar+india+knees+--hilton)
Video 2 - Some guy getting scared as his camel kneels (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7136700473104808954&q=camel+-toe)
Video 3 - A ferocious camel is made to kneel (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5301610253655070263&q=angry+ridden+camel+-toe)

So which is it? Knees first or hands first? :D

Allahu 'Alam!

[brother_bruce]

awesome...since 3/3 camels went down on their hands / forelegs first, I guess there's unanimous ijma' that we should go down knees first when going in sujood. :D

[AbdulHasib]

awesome...since 3/3 camels went down on their hands / forelegs first, I guess there's unanimous ijma' that we should go down knees first when going in sujood. :Djust a correction... There is ikhtilaaf. -)

Based on the hadith of, RasoolAllah salAllahu 'alaihee wa sallam "When one of you performs sajdah, he should not kneel like a camel, but should place his hands before his knees." Check it out here (http://www.qss.org/articles/salah/11.html#RTFToC2). (click on the footnotes to see the reasoning and proof).

Those videos are so cool subhanAllah!

WAllahu 'Alam

[Sincerity123]

just a correction... There is ikhtilaaf. -)

Based on the hadith of, RasoolAllah salAllahu 'alaihee wa sallam "When one of you performs sajdah, he should not kneel like a camel, but should place his hands before his knees." Check it out here (http://www.qss.org/articles/salah/11.html#RTFToC2). (click on the footnotes to see the reasoning and proof).

Those videos are so cool subhanAllah!

WAllahu 'AlamJazakumullaah kheirun for sharing that site...it has some really awesome duas subhanallaah.

May Allah teach us that which benefits us most (Ameen)

[MSalah]

As salaamu aleykum wa rahmatulaahi wa barakaatuh

I don't think Ijmaa' means [technical] evidence. From what we learnt Ijmaa' means scholarly concensus or you could say consensus of the muslim ummah, and it is regarded as a Sharee'ah proof that one must adhere to and follow. The 3 videos would constitute 3 evidences, not 3 scholarly consensus.

It would be interesting tho, to find out if video evidence (or visual evidence) could be cited as part of a logical proof? Remember, in Usuul al-Fiqh we learnt that Usuul al-Fiqh principles come from the Quran, the Sunnah, the Arabic language and Logic.

And Allah knows best.

Wa salaamu aleykum
M

[brother_bruce]

lol I know Ijma' doesnt result from technical 'proof'. i'm just playing. :)

br AbdulHasib - jazaks for posting the full hadith, though i did know there was ikhtilaaf still.

[mnvk]

awesome...since 3/3 camels went down on their hands / forelegs first, I guess there's unanimous ijma' that we should go down knees first when going in sujood. :DI tend to agree that it only looks like the camel is going down knees first if you focus on its forelegs only; but if we look at the camel overall, it is much more similar to someone who goes down hands first and then knees.

Notable scholars said the opposite like Imam Al-Albani as provided in the link by br. AbdulHasib; I'll quote it here for everyone's convenience:
[the Prophet] used to instruct likewise, saying, When one of you performs sajdah, he should not kneel like a camel, but should place his hands before his knees.*

*Abu Daawood, Tammaam in al-Fawaa'id, & Nasaa'i in Sunan as-Sughraa and Sunan al-Kubraa (47/1) with a saheeh isnaad. `Abdul Haqq declared it saheeh in al-Ahkaam (54/1), and went on to say in Kitaab al-Tahajjud (56/1), "it has a sounder isnaad than the previous one", i.e. the hadeeth of Waa'il which is the other way round (knees before hands). In fact, the latter hadeeth, as well as being contradictory to this saheeh hadeeth and the preceding one, is neither authentic in isnaad nor in meaning, as I have explained in Silsilah al-Ahaadeeth ad-Da`eefah (no. 929) and al-Irwaa' (357).

It should be known that the way to differ from the camel is to place the hands before the knees, because the camel places its knees first; a camel's "knees" are in its forelegs, as defined in Lisaan al-`Arab and other books of the `Arabic language, and as mentioned by Tahaawi in Mushkil al-Aathaar and Sharh Ma`aani al-Aathaar. Also, Imaam Qaasim al-Saraqusti (rahimahullaah) narrated in Ghareeb al-Hadeeth (2/70/1-2), with a saheeh isnaad, Abu Hurairah's statement, "No one should kneel the way a runaway camel does", and then added, "This is in sajdah. He is saying that one should not throw oneself down, as a runaway (or untamed) camel does, hurriedly and without calmness, but he should go down calmly, placing his hands first, followed by his knees, and an explanatory marfoo` hadeeth has been narrated in this regard." He then mentioned the hadeeth above.



As for Ibn al-Qayyim's extremely strange statement, "These words are incomprehensible, and not understood by the experts of the language", it is answered by the sources which we have mentioned, and also many others which can be consulted. I have also expanded on this in the refutation against Shaikh Tuwaijari, which may be published.As a side note, Camels are cool mashaa'Allah :D

Wa aleikom salaam.

[Noor Syed]

Can someone perhaps post Shaykh Uthaymeen's understanding of this hadith. It sounds most logical to me.

Wa AllahuAlim..

[UmA]

since 3/3 camels went down on their hands / forelegs first, I guess .....we should go down knees first when going in sujood. Of course remember how Ustadh said that both sides used the visual evidence to prove their point, while one side said, "look the camel is going down on its knees" the other side said,"no those are not knees, if it was human, those would be the hands."

Anyway what would we Torontonians know about camels.
__________________________________________________ _____

For the sake of completeness here is the other hadeeth that apparently contradicts the one mentioned in a previous post:

Waa'il ibn Hajar radiyallahu anhu said,
"I saw the Messenger of Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam when he did sujood, putting his knees down before his hands, and when he got up raised his hands before his knees."
(Abu Dawud, AtTirmidhi, AnNasai, Ibn Majah & AdDaraqutni) (Amongst the scholars that classed the hadith as sahih: Ibn AlQayyim in Zad AlMa'ad)

_____________

W'Allahu A'lam

[hussain.tausif]

subhanAllah its amazing how learning about one thing just leads us to learn about many other things.

May Allah suhana wata 'ala increase us all in knowledge, and help us implement it. And may Allah grant us all jannatul firdaus.

[AbdulHasib]

...

For the sake of completeness here is the other hadeeth that apparently contradicts the one mentioned in a previous post:

Waa'il ibn Hajar radiyallahu anhu said,
"I saw the Messenger of Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam when he did sujood, putting his knees down before his hands, and when he got up raised his hands before his knees."
(Abu Dawud, AtTirmidhi, AnNasai, Ibn Majah & AdDaraqutni) (Amongst the scholars that classed the hadith as sahih: Ibn AlQayyim in Zad AlMa'ad)

_____________

W'Allahu A'lam'Alaikum as-salaam wa rahmatAllah,

That's what sheikh al-Albani rahimahullah mentioned in the quote above:

Here specifically again:

it has a sounder isnaad than the previous one", i.e. the hadeeth of Waa'il which is the other way round (knees before hands). In fact, the latter hadeeth, as well as being contradictory to this saheeh hadeeth and the preceding one, is neither authentic in isnaad nor in meaning, as I have explained in Silsilah al-Ahaadeeth ad-Da`eefah (no. 929) and al-Irwaa' (357).I went ahead and looked it up in the Silsilah Ad-Da'eefah:

(1426)‎فلم أر له فيه راويا واحدا جرحه بالجهالة حتى الآن فهذا يؤكد أن الجهالة
عنده ليست جرحا ! هذا , و في معناه حديث وائل بن حجر قال : " رأيت النبي صلى

الله عليه وسلم إذا سجد وضع ركبتيه قبل يديه , و إذا نهض رفع يديه قبل ركبتيه "

.‎أخرجه أبو داود ( 1 / 134 ) و النسائي ( 1 / 165 ) و الترمذي ( 2 / 56 ) و

الطحاوي ( 1 / 150 )‎و ابن حبان في " صحيحه " (‎رقم 487 - موارد )‎و الدارقطني

( 131 - 132 )‎و الحاكم ( 1 / 226 )‎و عنه البيهقي ( 2 / 98 )‎كلهم من طريق

يزيد بن هارون : أخبرنا شريك <1> عن عاصم بن كليب عن أبيه عنه .‎قلت : و هذا

...

فقال عقبه : "‎تفرد به يزيد عن شريك , و لم يحدث به عاصم بن كليب غير شريك , و

شريك ليس بالقوي فيما يتفرد به " . و خالفهم أيضا البخاري ثم البيهقي فقال هذا

في "‎سننه " ( 2 / 99 ) : " هذا حديث يعد في أفراد شريك القاضي , و إنما تابعه

همام من هذا الوجه مرسلا , هكذا ذكره البخاري و غيره من الحفاظ المتقدمين رحمهم

الله تعالى "‎.‎و هذا هو الحق الذي لا يشك فيه كل من أنصف , و أعطى البحث حقه

من التحقيق العلمي ,‎أن هذا الإسناد ضعيف ,‎و له علتان : الأولى :‎تفرد شريك به

. و الأخرى :‎المخالفة .‎و قد سمعت آنفا الدارقطني يقول في شريك :‎إنه ليس

بالقوي فيما يتفرد به ,‎و في "‎التقريب " :‎"‎صدوق , يخطىء كثيرا , تغير حفظه
.

The interesting thing in the silsilah itself.. Shaykh Al Albani rahimahullah mentions...

The chain of narration where it mentions "knees not hands" is
Yazeed ibn Haroon related from Shuraik from 'Asim ibn Kulaib from His Father

Shaykh Al Albani rahimahullah mentions that the hadeeth is da'eef due to the narrator Shuraik.. and Al Bukhari and Ad-Daaraqutni attest to his weakness. Importantly, Ad-Daaraqutni says about Shuraik "often mistaken, mixes in memorization"

I was searching for Sheikh ibn Al 'Uthaimeen (rahimahullah)'s explanation of the hadeeth brother NoorSyed but after looking through Sharh al-Mumti' for a while.. I gave up,... insha'Allah i'll keep looking.




On a side note canadians, and camels with hadeeth is the coolest ever!!!! ha

WAllahu 'Alam
WAs-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatAllah

[a3644us]

Assalamo-a'likum.

i've a question regarding names used for camels , in Quran and Hadith, for example

جَمَلْ
بَعِیْر
ابل
العشار

can anyone tell me the difference between them, also anyother names for them.jazakum Allah Khairan.

[mbslrm]

Those camels looked so cool, sitting down...

Anyways, I guess we should all go down knees first now....

[AbdulHasib]

Here's the fatwa from IslamQA.

SubhanAllah.. how sheikh ul Islaam ibn Taymiyyah rahmatullahi 'alaih reconciles!


Hands first or knees first in sujood?

Question:
Regarding prostration in prayer, I have read two different versions. One (on this website) says that it is better that your knees touch the floor before your hands. In the book
The Prophet's Prayer, it says one should place one's hands on the ground before the knees - and quotes hadith supporting this (claiming knees before hand is as the camel and not advisable. Is there a correct way?

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

The scholars have differed as to how one should go down in sujood, whether one should go hands first or knees first. According to the Hanafis, Shaafa’is and one opinion narrated from Ahmad, the person who is praying should go down on his knees first, then on his hands. Al-Tirmidhi thought that this was the opinion of the majority of scholars, and said in his Sunan (2/57): “This is how it is done according to the majority of scholars: they think that a man should go down on his knees before he puts his hands down, and when he gets up he should raise his hands before his knees. Those who express this opinion take as evidence the hadeeth of Waa’il ibn Hajar, who said: “I saw the Messenger of Allaah http://islamqa.com/images/saws.gif (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), when he did sujood, putting his knees down before his hands, and when he got up he raised his hands before his knees.” (Reported by Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nisaa’i, Ibn Maajah and al-Daaraqutni (1/345). He said: The only one who narrated it was Yazeed ibn Haaroon from Shurayk. Nobody reported from ‘Aasim ibn Kulayb except Shurayk, and Shurayk is not qawiy (strong). Al-Bayhaqi said in al-Sunan (2/101): its isnaad is da’eef (weak). Al-Albaani classed it as da’eef in al-Mishkaat (898) and al-Irwa’ (2/75). Other scholars classed it as saheeh, such as Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Zaad al-Ma’aad). Among those who thought that one should go down into sujood knees first were Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah and his student Ibn al-Qayyim; contemporary scholars who favour this view include Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz and Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen.

Maalik, al-Awzaa’i and the scholars of hadeeth thought that one should go into sujood hands first, based on the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said: “The Messenger of Allaah http://islamqa.com/images/saws.gif (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘When any one of you prostrates, let him not go down as the camel does; let him put his hands down before his knees.’” (Reported by Ahmad (2/381), Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, and al-Nisaa’i. Al-Nawawi said in al-Majmoo’ (3/421): it was reported by Abu Dawood and al-Nisaa’i with a jayyid isnaad. It was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in al-Irwa’ (2/78), who said: This is a saheeh isnaad, all of whose men are thiqaat, the men of Muslim, apart from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Hasan, also known as al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah al-‘Alawi, who is thiqah)

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah made a valuable comment on this matter in al-Fataawa (22/449): “Praying in both ways is permissible, according to the consensus of the scholars. If a person wants to go down knees first or hands first, his prayer is valid in either case, according to the consensus of the scholars, but they disputed as to which is preferable.”

The scholar should act upon whichever opinion he believes is more likely to be correct, and the ordinary Muslim should follow the opinion of a scholar whom he trusts. And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid


WAllahu 'Alam
WAs-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatAllah

[Abdur Rahman Mirza]

Assalamu 'alaikum,

well said brother Abdul Haseeb. I also liked Shaikh ul-Islam's opinion originally but then I took this class with Shaikh Abdul Bary.

He said that those who say that both ways, knees first or hands first, are ok cannot be correct. This is because there is a prohibition attached in the hadeeth of not going into Sujood "as the camel kneels."

A prohibition indicates that one of the two ways is wrong.

WAllahu 'Alem.