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Nadeem R
02-11-2007, 05:53 AM
Bismillah

Brothers say, "we don't want a career woman"
Sisters say, "there aren't enough pious, mature, deeny, responsible, clean, etc, etc, etc brothers"

There seems to be this grand divide in how brothers and sisters view each other and yet these apparent faults stem from what I see as similar weaknesses. These are the fronts that we've created to uphold the last shreds of 'independence and freedom' before the 'vows of death' are taken as if we are preparing for war in marriage and someone is about to become shaheed.

As sisters have taken a more serious approach and set goals of establishing their careers, brothers have defaulted to a more primitive stage thus resulting in their negative image. The cause for this disparagy (and search for an understanding) is the purpose of this thread, and I'd like to see how others can explain it, with all emotions and insults aside [we can keep those for our private conversations].

At the end of the day though, we are both weak and need to engage in a healthy dialogue as to how to conquer the Shaytaan in us.

wallahualim.

Memoona
02-11-2007, 10:32 PM
Brothers say, "we don't want a career woman"WHY? Can the brothers please explain WHY they don't want a career woman IF the woman can be both a career woman and a homemaker? Cuz I personally know some awesome sisters that can do both, and they do plan on having a career and being a homemaker.

I personally wouldn't choose to be a career woman and I can understand some of the reasons why men don't want career women, but as we learned today Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. So, is it the same reasons (we as sisters are thinking of) or is there something totally different the brothers are thinking?

Also the term career woman should be defined by the brothers (as they are the ones oppossed to it). For example would you consider a sister who has her master's in education and decides to work in Islamic school, a career woman? Or a psychologist who works in a clinic or a masjid or a school to help the Muslims in her community, a career woman? But then does that also apply for a doctor who works to help Muslim women in the community a career woman? So basically define the term.

Sisters say, "there aren't enough pious, mature, deeny, responsible, clean, etc, etc, etc brothers"All I have to say for this is TRUE TRUE TRUE !!!!

Obviously I am totally biased toward the sisters side. Though I have to say I also know a few sisters who have been proposed to by "pious, mature, deeny, responsible, clean, etc. brothers" and they turned them down due to their education and career (and for those brothers I feel sorry) and to those sisters I say as the shaykh said "don't lower your standards but compromise".

And Allah knows best.

spana3rabia
02-11-2007, 11:12 PM
Obviously I am totally biased toward the sisters side. Though I have to say I also know a few sisters who have been proposed to by "pious, mature, deeny, responsible, clean, etc. brothers" and they turned them down due to their education and career (and for those brothers I feel sorry) and to those sisters I say as the shaykh said "don't lower your standards but compromise".And Allah knows best.

could you expand on this please? I'mnot entirely sure I understand what you mean by this. "dont lower your standards,compromise""

aren'tyou lowering your standards when you compromise? ordo you mean compromise in a different way?

omer_k88
02-11-2007, 11:16 PM
As salaam aleikum!

I'm a guy but I agree with the sisters. But for a lot of guys their usually immature with the guys because that's how guys are. But when it comes down to it they can be mature and won't break under pressure that women might not be able to endure.

One thing from the Sunnah I take is the example of the Mother of the believers Khadijah is probably the ideal wife and Rasulullah's (s) long lasting love of her even after her death is a sign of how good a wife she was.

As for the sisters...most guys are looking for a headstrong sister, who is both modest but assertive and yet Islamically active. The case example I give is how some brothers have a thing for sister Yvonne Ridley (the Islam channel lady)...not because of looks or anything but personality and strong traits. I know that sounds weird and perhaps well astaghfirullah but that's just kind of how it is.

Career woman can be seen by guys as a threat to their authority, however I know a very deeny family where the father drove a schoolbus for many years while his wife finished medicine and once she finished medicine and started practicing he started staying at home. So it's definitely possible. I like to imagine that falling in love is the simple solution that Allah has provided to make our choosing a spouse much easier.

spana3rabia
02-11-2007, 11:19 PM
In answer to the original post, I personally believe there needs to be a balance.

One needs to keep the different parts of his/her life balanced...not giving one more importance than the other. i mean not focusing on just one or two aspects of your life, and khallas forget about other aspects. For example: give a piece of your life to deen, another to education, family, work, spouse, etc.

If you can take care of everything, meaning not neglecting any piece of the pie(education-one slice; work=oneslice;family=one slice;spirituality/deen=oneslice;socializing/fun=one slice) then you should be on the right road. THere should be no problema.

so if work,in this day and age alot of women need towork(such as single mothers, or low-income families) or even those that don't have the obligation but are helping out the community and not causing fitnah by doing this, or doing osmething they love and that is halal, then why shouldit be an obstacle, if she can find a way to balance having a family, not neglecting her family and having a career. If one is determined they can find a way and be successful at the same time.

But, thats just my opinion, Allahu A'lam if it is correct.

Imtiaz
02-12-2007, 07:55 AM
I can't really discuss the career woman aspect yet, however, I know why at times (rarely) do I revert to the cave man / gamer man mindset.

Simply put, I personally, need to disassociate. Meaning a buffer zone. For example, if I get home there are times I would greet my parents and family eat whatever fell off the tree, and slouch on the couch our sit infront of a nice video/televised game of cricket or nova. Now why do I do so ? Simple, I really do not pay attention to the details of each with extreme attention, I need, im my mind to escape for a few minutes, then I return.


stay tuned for a diplomatic response to career woman

mahin
02-12-2007, 11:00 AM
There seems to be a common complaint from sisters that religious brothers lack in other fundamental areas, like manners, cleanliness/dressing/grooming/staying in shape and whatnot which is what I've gathered from my friends who have sisters...as they say around here, 'bearded brothers ain't got no game!'.

Faizan
02-12-2007, 11:57 AM
WHY? Can the brothers please explain WHY they don't want a career woman IF the woman can be both a career woman and a homemaker?


Assalamu Alaikum,

First of all and always, Allahu Alam. My opinion on the matter is that it is from the fitrah of man to want to take care of his wife, to provide for her, to protect her. It is part of his love and responsibility to her. In return he wants her to take care of his home and their children. To protect his honor when he is gone and to educate his children. Obviously there is more to it than that... im just listing a few things.

If then you take this feeling away from the man that he no longer is the provider, a very big and important role to any man, then how can you expect him to react to such a situation in a normal way. Ask any man and he will tell you that he wants to be appreciated by his wife and in some ways if the wife chooses to be a career woman even though there is no necessity for it, its a shot to his ego and almost insulting.

Again not all men are the same and thats also why you, the sister, have the right in islam to pick your husband. I just think that there are certain roles in society that as men we play and as women; the women play.

Sirius1
02-12-2007, 12:24 PM
Salaam Alaikum,

Interesting thread, I must say.

I just had a few comments/questions about this whole men feeling intimidated by 'career woman' thing...

Wasn't Khadijah (ra)--the Prophet's (sa) wife and A woman who is promised Jannah--a 'career woman' (so we like to call them)?

I find it interesting when Muslim men say that they feel insecure about their potential wife being a 'career women'...I mean...the Prophet (sa) worked for Khadijah (ra)--A woman--prior to their marriage. I have never read at any place, that the Prophet (Sa) claimed he felt insecure about marrying Khadijah (ra)--a 'career woman'. So where is this notion of (sometimes obligated) insecurity coming in the Muslim mens' mind? Why do some Muslim men view working wives as a threat to their manliness if the Prophet (sa) didn't? I don't get it.

Here is a gem we learned in the Rules of Engagement class: What is Prophetic IS manly.

Feel free to correct any misinformation that you may find in my post.

ZkrofAllah
02-12-2007, 12:44 PM
Assalamu Alaikum,

First of all and always, Allahu Alam. My opinion on the matter is that it is from the fitrah of man to want to take care of his wife, to provide for her, to protect her. It is part of his love and responsibility to her. In return he wants her to take care of his home and their children. To protect his honor when he is gone and to educate his children. Obviously there is more to it than that... im just listing a few things.
I second that!

As for Prophet (saw) working for Khadijah (ra)- its true and a great example but he was a Prophet and she- the mother of all Believers. If we are to expect our husbands to be like the Prophet (saw) we must first prove to them by being like his wives in character. Allahu’alam

Allah has programmed a husband to be the provider and to be needed. We as women cannot simply take that away from them. If they wants to provide, than why not take them up on the offer- and hold them to it?! We must also keep in mind that it is our husband that will be questioned about ‘our’ deeds on the DOJ- not the other way around. Due to that they rather have us stay at home and take care of the family as compared to go out and face the fitnah of this world and dealing with it on our own.

Questions for the sisters: if you want to be a career woman, why is that you do? What is the reason, yanee- is it because you want to practice what you have learned in school? Is it because you want to show the world that you are just as good as the men? Is it because you want to help the community and the Muslim Ummah? Is it because everyone does it, its normal now and you don’t want to be looked down upon by your peers? Or is it because you want to share the burden with your husband to provide for the house-hold?-- ask your self and be honest.

I don’t personally have anything against the career women slash wives but there are a lot of sisters that do both BUT for the wrong reasons. But again at the same time – there are a lot of those sisters who do it for the right reasons and succeed.

To sum it up- get your priorities straight and live by them.

A quote I often say to the sisters on this matter is, “ Funny business, a women’s career: the things you drop on the way up the ladder so you can move faster. You forget you’ll need them again when you get back to being a woman. It’s one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we’ve got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we’ve had to or wanted.” Said by Joseph Mankiewiez.

And Allah Jalo Jalalo knows best :)

Originally Posted by Imaanbillah
Sisters say, "there aren't enough pious, mature, deeny, responsible, clean, etc, etc, etc brothers"
That just made me laugh :D

Sirius1
02-12-2007, 01:29 PM
I believe this part of the post is a response to what I had said.


As for Prophet (saw) working for Khadijah (ra)- its true and a great example but he was a Prophet and she- the mother of all Believers. If we are to expect our husbands to be like the Prophet (saw) we must first prove to them by being like his wives in character. Allahu’alamI must say, you have misunderstood my statements.

Let me put it in a different way:

A lot of times, I hear Muslim men admitting their insecurity concerning 'career women' and in response other Muslim men confirming it to be a legitimate insecurity, further embedding a negative attitude toward women who work.

So, my question for the Muslim men was why that is so? Aren't we as Muslims supposed to look to the Prophet's (sa) example before justifying a feeling as being legitimate/illegitimate, and calling something 'fitrah', even if its hard for us to become like him?

Just last week, we learned in the Rules of Engagement class the error men (often women) make in defining masculinity. The Shaykh was saying how some men view having soft hands, cuddling little kids as feminine characteristics, yet the Prophet (sa), himself, had the softest of hands and he used to cuddle children. He then said that what is Prophetic is masculine.

My statements were regarding the attitudes of men (and also some women)--generally speaking-- toward masculinity and not about expectations from potential husbands.

If the brothers have their own insecurities/fears regarding 'career women', let it be so, we all have our own weaknesses/fears regarding a thing or two, nobody's perfect. But let's not go so far as to define those fears as being fitrah. We need to look at the Prophet's (sa) example before concluding anything.

The Prophet (sa) defined masculinity and he married Khadijah (ra)--a 'career woman.'

The Prophet's (sa) example comes before any sort of psychological research findings about the nature of men and women.

Wallahu Alim

Sirius1
02-12-2007, 01:35 PM
Furthermore, did they have any clear-cut definitions as 'home-maker' and 'career woman' at the time of the prophet (sa) as we are discussing here? Wasn't their life a blend of different activities? I once read that Aisha (ra) was skilled at practicing medicine (can someone confirm this, please)?

Sr. Reehab
02-12-2007, 02:26 PM
Asalamu alaykum warahmat Allah~!

As for Prophet (saw) working for Khadijah (ra)- its true and a great example but he was a Prophet and she- the mother of all Believers. If we are to expect our husbands to be like the Prophet (saw) we must first prove to them by being like his wives in character. Allahu’alamtrue that sister, trruuee that.


Allah has programmed a husband to be the provider and to be needed. We as women cannot simply take that away from them. If they wants to provide, than why not take them up on the offer- and hold them to it?! We must also keep in mind that it is our husband that will be questioned about ‘our’ deeds on the DOJ- not the other way around. Due to that they rather have us stay at home and take care of the family as compared to go out and face the fitnah of this world and dealing with it on our own.Agreed. I was listening to the FOL cd set and i remember the sheikh speaking about how a husband WANTS his wife to need him. he wants to be the person who is there to help her...once she stops needing him...once she takes on this 'im an independent woman' kind of stance, then his role becomes jumbled and the man himself becomes distraught.


Questions for the sisters: if you want to be a career woman, why is that you do? What is the reason, yanee- is it because you want to practice what you have learned in school? Is it because you want to show the world that you are just as good as the men? Is it because you want to help the community and the Muslim Ummah? Is it because everyone does it, its normal now and you don’t want to be looked down upon by your peers? Or is it because you want to share the burden with your husband to provide for the house-hold?-- ask your self and be honest. these are awesome questions that we should all ask ourselves.

honestly i want to be a career women. yes, a career woman. Because I take the example of my mother.

my mom never worked outside of the home when we were younger because she wanted to dedicate all her time and effort to us (yes we were a handful :-P ). i remember in elementry school everyone would speak about how their mom was a doctor...or a business woman...and i would be the only one saying "oh no my mom doesnt work. my mom volunteers here at school on tuesdays and thursdays tho..." but honestly i was wrong. my mom DID work. my mom WAS a career woman. her career was her children. They say you should choose a career which you love, which will benefit your akhira, which will effect more than just you at this moment...and that is EXACTLY what my mother did.




“ Funny business, a women’s career: the things you drop on the way up the ladder so you can move faster. You forget you’ll need them again when you get back to being a woman. It’s one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we’ve got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we’ve had to or wanted.” awesome quote dude. mashaAllah.

~wa Allahu Alam~

spana3rabia
02-12-2007, 02:49 PM
honestly i want to be a career women. yes, a career woman. Because I take the example of my mother.

my mom never worked outside of the home when we were younger because she wanted to dedicate all her time and effort to us (yes we were a handful :-P ). i remember in elementry school everyone would speak about how their mom was a doctor...or a business woman...and i would be the only one saying "oh no my mom doesnt work. my mom volunteers here at school on tuesdays and thursdays tho..." but honestly i was wrong. my mom DID work. my mom WAS a career woman. her career was her children. They say you should choose a career which you love, which will benefit your akhira, which will effect more than just you at this moment...and that is EXACTLY what my mother did.

that is so true. you know during br ahmed sidkys lifeplanning workshop yesterday...alot of his questions that he asked and made us imagine and such...it made me realize some of my goals...and it made me realize things that I never thought about before.

like for instance, my mom is my hero. well I always knew that since day one. wHENEVER we were asked to write a paper. I wrote it about her. If we were to describe our superwoman, she was it. subhanAllah. She was like ur mom, and still is...she does everything for her children, and wants the best for them. just like so many other moms. ALhamdulillah. so, in that aspect, I believe my mom is too, a career woman...and one of the best examples i could look up to.May ALlah grant all of our mothers Jannat uLfirdaws! ameen.

spana3rabia
02-12-2007, 03:01 PM
Furthermore, did they have any clear-cut definitions as 'home-maker' and 'career woman' at the time of the prophet (sa) as we are discussing here? Wasn't their life a blend of different activities? I once read that Aisha (ra) was skilled at practicing medicine (can someone confirm this, please)?

i agree. Its not really that clear-cut as some people make it out to be.

you can be a "stay-at-home mom" raising your kids to be righteous muslims(waht more noble job is there? raising hte future generations of this ummah! allahu Akbar!) and you can be say, a writer for the local newspaper/islamic magazine dispelling myths about the muslim woman, the "oppressed" and about Islam.

I say, its all about balancing it the right way...you can't do everything! For me, its not even about being independent. (Islam gave me my *INDEPENDENCE* and raised my status as a muslimah! laa ilaaha illAllah!)Its not even about competing with the man. Its not even about taking my man's or any man's ego downa notch..."wearing the pants in the household." I think thats such a ridiculous notion to hold as a muslim woman.
Personally, i can't talk for other women, thats why we have thsi thread for eeveryone to voice their own beliefs....

I, however, believe its about taking advantage of the opportunities around us. Something br ahmed sidky(not all of it is verbatim and someone please correct me if i completely destroyed it, said): "Dream for Islam. Dream for Jannah. Ambitious dreams without determination will only be dreams. don't dream about the life you want and not do anything about making it a reality. somebody else will take those opportunities from you and they'll be living your "life-ie the one you dream about." sorry i know thers a better way to say that...

and something else i got fromt hat workshop: "Thank Allah by using yourself-all that HE(swt) gave you-your eyes, mind, limbs,etc"

so I believe if i can use all that Allah gave me, in a variety of ways without overburdening myself or neglecting any crucial aspect of my life(my family for instance...) then, why not?

WAllahu A'lam/

spana3rabia
02-12-2007, 03:17 PM
I second that!

As for Prophet (saw) working for Khadijah (ra)- its true and a great example but he was a Prophet and she- the mother of all Believers. If we are to expect our husbands to be like the Prophet (saw) we must first prove to them by being like his wives in character. Allahu’alam

subhanAllah, thy speaketh the trutheth.:)

Allah has programmed a husband to be the provider and to be needed. We as women cannot simply take that away from them. If they wants to provide, than why not take them up on the offer- and hold them to it?! We must also keep in mind that it is our husband that will be questioned about ‘our’ deeds on the DOJ- not the other way around. Due to that they rather have us stay at home and take care of the family as compared to go out and face the fitnah of this world and dealing with it on our own.

did Allah really create man to be needed? I did not know that. SubhanAllah! I dont look at it as a way of providing for the family. Again, everyones different. I look at it as making a change-an IMPACT in the society, in the WORLD we live in. we don't have to be a "Careerwoman" to achieve that, but I don't think you have to stay holed up in your home either. (whatever that is...I hope somebody would define that, because I have a feeling we're all looking at "careerwoman" through different colored lenses. we all have our own little meanings for it. subhanAllah. the complexity of the human mind~)
I can understand that the husband wants to like keep us away from fitnah. but look around, brothers and sisters, theres fitnah everywhere...the tests we go thru determine our strengths and weaknesses. Alhamdulillah, we should look at thesse tests as an opportunity to strengthen our weaknesses! do women have to be this weak, fragile person? We should strive to be strong-spiritually, physically, emotionally, etc etc. strong so that we can enter Jannatul Firdaws, and may we all be granted entrance into Jannatulfirdaws! ameen.

for the record* I'm not saying deliberately put yourself in the middle of all teh fitnah...but anything can be interpreted as fitnah in this corrupt world. the computer, the internet can be a fitnah, AND it can be a tool to benefit ourselves, to benefit our ummah, to benefit the society/communitywe live in, and even to benefit the WORLD. it all depends on how we use it no?


Questions for the sisters: if you want to be a career woman, why is that you do? What is the reason, yanee- is it because you want to practice what you have learned in school? Is it because you want to show the world that you are just as good as the men? Is it because you want to help the community and the Muslim Ummah? Is it because everyone does it, its normal now and you don’t want to be looked down upon by your peers? Or is it because you want to share the burden with your husband to provide for the house-hold?-- ask your self and be honest.

i believei answered these questions in another post...if you can find it sis.;P


And Allah Jalo Jalalo knows best :)

si, Allah Knows Best!

spana3rabia
02-12-2007, 03:28 PM
and subhanALLAH, I wanted to take some time out to applaud my muslim brothers and sisters on their level of maturity and hikmah of responding to others on this thread...I love the way we can discuss our own personal opinions and beliefs in a mature manner despite the fact that we all hold these differences of opinion...without shooting each other down.LOL.

kind of reminds me of, we can agree to disagree.

Allahu Akbar.:)

and jazakomAllahu khairan for putting up with all my posts...i have too much to say I guess. lol.

Sirius1
02-12-2007, 05:08 PM
I don't feel like quoting everyone here who tend to assume that women who work outside the home believe they don't need a man. Too much work.

All I want to say is (women) working outside the home does not equate man not needed! Marriage being the sunnah of the Prophet (sa) and the natural differences that Allah has created between men and women are reasons enough for each gender needing the other.

The Prophet (sa) left great lessons in everything he did. Indeed, there are great lessons in his marriage with Khadijah (ra). :)

Nadeem R
02-12-2007, 05:17 PM
I asked the Shaykh if Khadijah (ra) can be used as a daleel for sisters to be career women. He replied by saying more or less, No. We should be careful in using her (ra) as an example to follow our desires. She was not in the public scene, attending conferences, (etc) as career women are. Rather, she sent people to work for her and do her business. So, if one wants to use her as an example, then please do so correctly.

Wallahualim.

I hope the Shaykh will jump in on this conversation and shed some more light on Khadijah (ra) as a "career woman".

Yusrah Uthman
02-12-2007, 06:16 PM
Simply put, I personally, need to disassociate. Meaning a buffer zone. For example, if I get home there are times I would greet my parents and family eat whatever fell off the tree, and slouch on the couch our sit infront of a nice video/televised game of cricket or nova. Now why do I do so ? Simple, I really do not pay attention to the details of each with extreme attention, I need, im my mind to escape for a few minutes, then I return.


haha. funny

as salamu aleykum wr wb

Yusrah Uthman
02-12-2007, 06:20 PM
Questions for the sisters: if you want to be a career woman, why is that you do? What is the reason, yanee- is it because you want to practice what you have learned in school? Is it because you want to show the world that you are just as good as the men? Is it because you want to help the community and the Muslim Ummah? Is it because everyone does it, its normal now and you don’t want to be looked down upon by your peers? Or is it because you want to share the burden with your husband to provide for the house-hold?-- ask your self and be honest.


Hmmm... Rephrase the question. Can cause commotion.

Salam

Sirius1
02-12-2007, 06:31 PM
I asked the Shaykh if Khadijah (ra) can be used as a daleel for sisters to be career women. He replied by saying more or less, No. We should be careful in using her (ra) as an example to follow our desires. She was not in the public scene, attending conferences, (etc) as career women are. Rather, she sent people to work for her and do her business. So, if one wants to use her as an example, then please do so correctly.

Wallahualim.

I hope the Shaykh will jump in on this conversation and shed some more light on Khadijah (ra) as a "career woman". Well, first I think we need to put forward our definitions of 'career woman.' Here is how I defined it...a woman who is financially independent. And for gaining financial independence one doesn't necessarily need to attend conferences and be in the public scene. Khadijah (ra) was financially independent and that's reality. (From what I know, there is nothing wrong with women working in public as long as she is wearing proper hijab and adhering to Islamic ettiquette in her dealings with men).

I think thats the definition some other people on this thread are also using, as they are saying things like if women work, it will hurt the man's ego, he will not feel needed.

We should be careful in using her (ra) as an example to follow our desires.There is no harm in desiring something that is not prohibited by Allah or his messenger (sa). Placing unnecessary restrictions on your life or someone else's in the name of religion means adding constraint.
So, if one wants to use her as an example, then please do so correctly.If someone wants to follow Khadijah's (ra) example why should their intentions be doubted and potrayed as being negative. I think, one should give the benefit of the doubt to another person before making (judgemental) remarks. :) I am not a scholarly person, and I don't mind being corrected. Give your reasons for why you think her example is not being used correctly to support your statement.

Again...I am not arguing that woman must work. All I'm trying to say is don't attach negative connotations with women who are financially independent or 'career women' (as some like to call them).

I would ask again, did they have clear-cut roles for women back then as they have it now?

Memoona
02-12-2007, 07:35 PM
I believe this is the article the shaykh was talking about in class, and all I have to say is subhanallah!

Point: Don't Marry Career Women
By Michael Noer
How do women, careers and marriage mix? Not well, say social scientists.

Guys: a word of advice. Marry pretty women or ugly ones. Short ones or tall ones. Blondes or brunettes. Just, whatever you do, don't marry a woman with a career.

Why? Because if many social scientists are to be believed, you run a higher risk of having a rocky marriage. While everyone knows that marriage can be stressful, recent studies have found professional women are more likely to get divorced, more likely to cheat and less likely to have children. And if they do have kids, they are more likely to be unhappy about it. A recent study in Social Forces, a research journal, found that women--even those with a "feminist" outlook--are happier when their husband is the primary breadwinner.

Not a happy conclusion, especially given that many men, particularly successful men, are attracted to women with similar goals and aspirations. And why not? After all, your typical career girl is well educated, ambitious, informed and engaged. All seemingly good things, right? Sure … at least until you get married. Then, to put it bluntly, the more successful she is, the more likely she is to grow dissatisfied with you. Sound familiar?

Many factors contribute to a stable marriage, including the marital status of your spouse's parents (folks with divorced parents are significantly more likely to get divorced themselves), age at first marriage, race, religious beliefs and socio-economic status. And, of course, many working women are indeed happily and fruitfully married--it's just that they are less likely to be so than nonworking women. And that, statistically speaking, is the rub.

To be clear, we're not talking about a high school dropout minding a cash register. For our purposes, a "career girl" has a university-level (or higher) education, works more than 35 hours a week outside the home and makes more than $30,000 a year.

If a host of studies are to be believed, marrying these women is asking for trouble. If they quit their jobs and stay home with the kids, they will be unhappy ( Journal of Marriage and Family, 2003). They will be unhappy if they make more money than you do ( Social Forces, 2006). You will be unhappy if they make more money than you do ( Journal of Marriage and Family, 2001). You will be more likely to fall ill ( American Journal of Sociology). Even your house will be dirtier ( Institute for Social Research).

Why? Well, despite the fact that the link between work, women and divorce rates is complex and controversial, much of the reasoning is based on a lot of economic theory and a bit of common sense. In classic economics, a marriage is, at least in part, an exercise in labor specialization. Traditionally, men have tended to do "market" or paid work outside the home, and women have tended to do "nonmarket" or household work, including raising children. All of the work must get done by somebody, and this pairing, regardless of who is in the home and who is outside the home, accomplishes that goal. Nobel laureate Gary S. Becker argued that when the labor specialization in a marriage decreases--if, for example, both spouses have careers--the overall value of the marriage is lower for both partners because less of the total needed work is getting done, making life harder for both partners and divorce more likely. And, indeed, empirical studies have concluded just that.

In 2004, John H. Johnson examined data from the Survey of Income and Program Participation and concluded that gender has a significant influence on the relationship between work hours and increases in the probability of divorce. Women's work hours consistently increase divorce, whereas increases in men's work hours often have no statistical effect. "I also find that the incidence in divorce is far higher in couples where both spouses are working than in couples where only one spouse is employed," Johnson says. A few other studies, which have focused on employment (as opposed to working hours), have concluded that working outside the home actually increases marital stability, at least when the marriage is a happy one. But even in these studies, wives' employment does correlate positively to divorce rates, when the marriage is of "low marital quality."

The other reason a career can hurt a marriage will be obvious to anyone who has seen his or her mate run off with a co-worker: When your spouse works outside the home, chances increase that he or she will meet someone more likable than you. "The work environment provides a host of potential partners," researcher Adrian J. Blow reported in The Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, "and individuals frequently find themselves spending a great deal of time with these individuals."

There's more: According to a wide-ranging review of the published literature, highly educated people are more likely to have had extramarital sex (those with graduate degrees are 1.75 times more likely to have cheated than those with high school diplomas). Additionally, individuals who earn more than $30,000 a year are more likely to cheat.

And if the cheating leads to divorce, you're really in trouble. Divorce has been positively correlated with higher rates of alcoholism, clinical depression and suicide. Other studies have associated divorce with increased rates of cancer, stroke, and sexually transmitted disease. Plus, divorce is financially devastating. According to one recent study on "Marriage and Divorce's Impact on Wealth," published in The Journal of Sociology, divorced people see their overall net worth drop an average of 77%.

So why not just stay single? Because, academically speaking, a solid marriage has a host of benefits beyond just individual "happiness." There are broader social and health implications as well. According to a 2004 paper titled "What Do Social Scientists Know About the Benefits of Marriage?," marriage is positively associated with "better outcomes for children under most circumstances" and higher earnings for adult men, and "being married and being in a satisfying marriage are positively associated with health and negatively associated with mortality." In other words, a good marriage is associated with a higher income, a longer, healthier life and better-adjusted kids.

A word of caution, though: As with any social scientific study, it's important not to confuse correlation with causation. In other words, just because married folks are healthier than single people, it doesn't mean that marriage is causing the health gains. It could just be that healthier people are more likely to be married.

Sirius1
02-12-2007, 09:54 PM
I dont think we need to extract lessons from the latest psychology/sociology research when we have the Quran and the sunnah.

I don't see how these research findings apply to the Muslim community who have a totally different set of values (have a sense of right/wrong, know where to draw the line) than the Western people on whom these findings are based.

Different cultures. Inapplicable results. I would say.

Like the sister said, Subhanallah.

Nadeem R
02-12-2007, 10:45 PM
well, even i'd have to admit the article is a bit critical. However it does raise some interesting points. For the most part, I think we as a generation are treading new territory. Fifty years ago, a wife being at home was the norm. We have a choice to make now between retaining traditional standards or morphing into the new times. The thing that scares me, is how much we may lose in this evolution of the family structure and I'm trying to formulate an image of how a balance can be achieved.

Is it really possible for a man and wife to each work over 40 hours a week, and still maintain a healthy family, maintain a loving relationship, and raise righteous children? It doesn't add up to me......

asyed
02-12-2007, 11:02 PM
Women stop trying to be SUPER WOMEN!

Muslim women that want to pursue a career also come home and cook, clean, take care of kids... From work - they are on the phone constantly trying to see how their kids are doing, etc... When home they get calls from work...



STOP THE CYCLE! Stay home and raise good children. We need righteousness in the Ummah more than your money!!!!



Yes, you can work from time to time, if you think you need to support the family, practice what you learned, etc. Yes, you can work a couple hrs a day to keep busy. BUT STOP TRYING TO BE SUPER WOMEN! You will fall in exhaustion and destroy your family.



Allahu Alam.

HiBz EsSenSe ©
02-12-2007, 11:11 PM
Is it really possible for a man and wife to each work over 40 hours a week, and still maintain a healthy family, maintain a loving relationship, and raise righteous children? It doesn't add up to me...... Me Either, SubhanAllah, Allah AazaWajal with his Hikma made us females being the ones that bear the children for a reason. (I been actually working since I was 14 & am for a women working, But trust me, if I had a child, working 40 hours a week would def have a negative affect on that childs Islamic Upbringing, & thus Allah made our priority our Husbands & Families. If someone, Like Me, wants to raise their future childen to Hold down & Literally Revive the UMMAH from its Slumber, working 9-5 outside, just wont work) -Allahul Musta3an

A Woman's Reflection on Leading Prayer
by Yasmin Mogahed (Friday March 25 2005)






"Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be something I’m not--and in all honesty--don’t want to be: a man. As women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men, and value the beauty in our own God-given distinctiveness."








On March 18, 2005 Amina Wadud led the first female-led Jumuah (Friday) prayer. On that day women took a huge step towards being more like men. But, did we come closer to actualizing our God-given liberation?

I don’t think so.

What we so often forget is that God has honored the woman by giving her value in relation to God—not in relation to men. But as western feminism erases God from the scene, there is no standard left—but men. As a result the western feminist is forced to find her value in relation to a man. And in so doing she has accepted a faulty assumption. She has accepted that man is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full human being until she becomes just like a man—the standard.

When a man cut his hair short, she wanted to cut her hair short. When a man joined the army, she wanted to join the army. She wanted these things for no other reason than because the “standard” had it.

What she didn’t recognize was that God dignifies both men and women in their distinctiveness--not their sameness. And on March 18, Muslim women made the very same mistake.

For 1400 years there has been a consensus of the scholars that men are to lead prayer. As a Muslim woman, why does this matter? The one who leads prayer is not spiritually superior in any way. Something is not better just because a man does it. And leading prayer is not better, just because it’s leading. Had it been the role of women or had it been more divine, why wouldn’t the Prophet have asked Ayesha or Khadija, or Fatima—the greatest women of all time—to lead? These women were promised heaven—and yet they never lead prayer.

But now for the first time in 1400 years, we look at a man leading prayer and we think, “That’s not fair.” We think so although God has given no special privilege to the one who leads. The imam is no higher in the eyes of God than the one who prays behind.

On the other hand, only a woman can be a mother. And God has given special privilege to a mother. The Prophet taught us that heaven lies at the feet of mothers. But no matter what a man does he can never be a mother. So why is that not unfair?

When asked who is most deserving of our kind treatment? The Prophet replied ‘your mother’ three times before saying ‘your father’ only once. Isn’t that sexist? No matter what a man does he will never be able to have the status of a mother.

And yet even when God honors us with something uniquely feminine, we are too busy trying to find our worth in reference to men, to value it—or even notice. We too have accepted men as the standard; so anything uniquely feminine is, by definition, inferior. Being sensitive is an insult, becoming a mother—a degradation. In the battle between stoic rationality (considered masculine) and self-less compassion (considered feminine), rationality reigns supreme.

As soon as we accept that everything a man has and does is better, all that follows is just a knee jerk reaction: if men have it—we want it too. If men pray in the front rows, we assume this is better, so we want to pray in the front rows too. If men lead prayer, we assume the imam is closer to God, so we want to lead prayer too. Somewhere along the line we’ve accepted the notion that having a position of worldly leadership is some indication of one’s position with God.

A Muslim woman does not need to degrade herself in this way. She has God as a standard. She has God to give her value; she doesn’t need a man.

In fact, in our crusade to follow men, we, as women, never even stopped to examine the possibility that what we have is better for us. In some cases we even gave up what was higher only to be like men.

Fifty years ago, society told us that men were superior because they left the home to work in factories. We were mothers. And yet, we were told that it was women’s liberation to abandon the raising of another human being in order to work on a machine. We accepted that working in a factory was superior to raising the foundation of society—just because a man did it.

Then after working, we were expected to be superhuman—the perfect mother, the perfect wife, the perfect homemaker—and have the perfect career. And while there is nothing wrong, by definition, with a woman having a career, we soon came to realize what we had sacrificed by blindly mimicking men. We watched as our children became strangers and soon recognized the privilege we’d given up.

And so only now—given the choice—women in the West are choosing to stay home to raise their children. According to the United States Department of Agriculture, only 31 percent of mothers with babies, and 18 percent of mothers with two or more children, are working full-time. And of those working mothers, a survey conducted by Parenting Magazine in 2000, found that 93% of them say they would rather be home with their kids, but are compelled to work due to 'financial obligations'. These ‘obligations’ are imposed on women by the gender sameness of the modern West, and removed from women by the gender distinctiveness of Islam.

It took women in the West almost a century of experimentation to realize a privilege given to Muslim women 1400 years ago.

Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be something I’m not--and in all honesty--don’t want to be: a man. As women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men, and value the beauty in our own God-given distinctiveness.

If given a choice between stoic justice and compassion, I choose compassion. And if given a choice between worldly leadership and heaven at my feet—I choose heaven.


Source: by courtesy & © 2005 Yasmin Mogahed (http://usa.mediamonitors.net/feedbacktoauthor/4404/4405) (Yes I Did take her personal permission before posting this)

asyed
02-12-2007, 11:12 PM
This one is for the sisters:

Most guys just cant stand women working hard in front of them:

My Mother: When she starts to wash dishes, clean the floor, cook or anything, everybody in my house rushes to aid her. To lessen her load, etc.

Next time notice when a women is carrying a lot of load in her hands... strange men will rush to her aid (even if she is ugly :))

My sister: Started to work at a friends day care... one time she fell sick... something related to work... my brother in law had her quit.

When I think of other senarios I'll post them. Or you post them!

Memoona
02-13-2007, 12:22 AM
Is it really possible for a man and wife to each work over 40 hours a week, and still maintain a healthy family, maintain a loving relationship, and raise righteous children? It doesn't add up to me...... It doesn't add up. In my opinion, there is always at least one thing that suffers. Whether that is the upbringing of the kids, a loving relationship with their spouse, or their work.

I don't know if people realize that when women do all of the above mentioned they still have the housework to do ... cooking, cleaning, etc (though we all learned from the shaykh that the brothers could and should help out whenever they can) so that's double the work.


But trust me, if I had a child, working 40 hours a week would def have a negative affect on that childs Islamic Upbringing, & thus Allah made our priority our Husbands & Families. If someone, Like Me, wants to raise their future childen to Hold down & Literally Revive the UMMAH from its Slumber, working 9-5 outside, just wont work) -Allahul Musta3an
Couldn't agree more !!!

HiBz EsSenSe ©
02-13-2007, 12:34 AM
Careers such as teaching are easily persued while married and easy to drop when there comes a need...and likewise easy to start up again when the need is gone (ex. you have kids--drop the job--they grow up & get married--pick it back up). Allahu Alam. Yup, & Thats why im in Education major ! (Besides loving to work with children, Its flexibile & has the least interaction with males)

Memoona
02-13-2007, 12:45 AM
Women stop trying to be SUPER WOMEN!

Muslim women that want to pursue a career also come home and cook, clean, take care of kids... From work - they are on the phone constantly trying to see how their kids are doing, etc... When home they get calls from work...



STOP THE CYCLE! Stay home and raise good children. We need righteousness in the Ummah more than your money!!!!



Yes, you can work from time to time, if you think you need to support the family, practice what you learned, etc. Yes, you can work a couple hrs a day to keep busy. BUT STOP TRYING TO BE SUPER WOMEN! You will fall in exhaustion and destroy your family.



Allahu Alam.I think an important point to understanding why woman try to be superwoman is because of the pressure of their parents (specifically the mothers).

I know my mom wanted me to be the best doctor (as most desi parents want for their kids, though I've crushed this dream) and be the best wife and the best mother. So basically she wanted me to work the 9-5 job, keep the house spotless, raise intelligent, righteous children who are memorizing Quran (or at least trying to), cook the best dinners on time, and etc.

When she told me this I cracked up, she obviously knew she was being idealistic and unrealistic. But she wants me to "have it all". Which I think alot of mothers want for their daughters.

So the daughters are faced with continuing their education and after they finish their education getting a career ... just because they still live with their parents.

So, to the brothers I say don't be afraid of proposing to what may seem as a "career woman" because she just might not want to be one but feels pressured by her parents. (Caution: make sure this is the real reson before marrying her)

And Allah Knows best

Memoona
02-13-2007, 01:09 AM
wow subhanAllah i chose not to read the article before but.... so say if i come from a divorced family... some how im programmed to divorce my own wife?... i would think that the person who grew up in such an environment would hate just the thought of such a thing. That person's wife would be very fortunate to have him as a husband. He would treat her as a "princess" because he so dearly wouldnt want what he had to experience... for his sake... and for his children... and for the person who chose to love him.I agree 100%!!!

However, I think it's important to keep in mind that the article is based on studies being conducted amongst non-Muslims families and not Muslim families.
Also keep in mind some reasons for divorce include violence and drinking so then the theory goes will the child learn this behavior and emulate it when he is an adult or try harder to avoid it. For example, if a child sees his father beat his mother when stressed. Will the child learn this as a coping mechanism and emulate it when he is an adult or will the child have a natural disgust to that behavior or will he work extra hard to make sure he does not emulate that behavior. Take the same example and replace it with lack of communication. So basically it goes back to the Social Learning Theory. (Yes I'm a psychology major but I don't necessarily agree with everything my field has to say)

But isn't it interesting how (at least in desi cultures) divorced women are stigmatized, and not only are they stigmatized but so are their children. So many auntys don't propose to girls who are from a divorced family. The same goes for sons that come from a divorced family (but not to the same extent).

And Allah knows best

Faizan
02-13-2007, 01:25 AM
I agree 100%!!!

However, I think it's important to keep in mind that the article is based on studies being conducted amongst non-Muslims families and not Muslim families.
Also keep in mind some reasons for divorce include violence and drinking so then the theory goes will the child learn this behavior and emulate it when he is an adult or try harder to avoid it. For example, if a child sees his father beat his mother when stressed. Will the child learn this as a coping mechanism and emulate it when he is an adult or will the child have a natural disgust to that behavior or will he work extra hard to make sure he does not emulate that behavior. Take the same example and replace it with lack of communication. So basically it goes back to the Social Learning Theory. (Yes I'm a psychology major but I don't necessarily agree with everything my field has to say)

But isn't it interesting how (at least in desi cultures) divorced women are stigmatized, and not only are they stigmatized but so are their children. So many auntys don't propose to girls who are from a divorced family. The same goes for sons that come from a divorced family (but not to the same extent).

And Allah knows best



didnt know someone quoted my post... i already erased it...

ZkrofAllah
02-13-2007, 09:38 AM
some women can be super women. ive seen some myself...it isnt based on the fact that they work its based on the fact that they try their best in what they do...no matter what they do...be it teaching their children A B C's or be it sitting down and listening to their teenage daughter speak. Yeah that is true-- but i believe that a tiny amount of sisters can actually pull all that off and not have a negative affect on her family and the upbringing of her children.. <<talk about multi-tasking>> Allah Knows Best!


"a word of advice. Marry pretty women or ugly ones. Short ones or tall ones. Blondes or brunettes. Just, whatever you do, don't marry a woman with a career. "
this IS hilarious.

Sirius1
02-13-2007, 11:19 AM
Its good to see that people are now arguing the amount of hours a woman must put into her job and not whether or not its okay for a woman to be financially independent or a 'career girl'.

Sure a 9-5 job plus familial responsibilities is strenuous for most women. Women must not overburden themselves. They should only work out of their choice or/and convenience.

Women should get all the help they can from their husbands. From what I know, ultimately its the man job to take care of the kids (ex. provide for them, educate them, meet their needs, etc.) and the wife. He will be questioned about it on the Day of Judgement. Husbands are also supposed to help their wives with house work, regardless of her being a 'career woman', as the Prophet (sa) used to help his wives and help himself. Often times men seem to forget the 'house-work' part of their responsibility and put all the burden on the woman (examples of such views can also be seen on this thread) which often forces a woman (both--'career'/'non-career') to expoit herself.

Wallahu Alim.

spana3rabia
02-13-2007, 12:05 PM
Its good to see that people are now arguing the amount of hours a woman must put into her job and not whether or not its okay for a woman to be financially independent or a 'career girl'.

Sure a 9-5 job plus familial responsibilities is strenuous for most women. Women must not overburden themselves. They should only work out of their choice or/and convenience.


Wallahu Alim.
I agree.

Sirius1
02-13-2007, 01:18 PM
stay tuned for a diplomatic response to career woman
Have all the points been covered or should we wait?

sincerequestioner
02-13-2007, 11:32 PM
salam alaykum,
on the contrary i have seen and met men,muslim brothers ,who want career women as wives.I dont know if this is right or wrong, but i wonder why.
Also,i believe that religous men should try to be "jack of all trades,master of all" in the sense that they should at least try to reach the minimum in all aspects.In essecne they should strive hard to continue to make the prophet their role model.

May Allah make it easy

Inamal Dunya Fana
02-14-2007, 12:18 AM
This is one of the most interesting threads I've read on the forum.

My two cents:

(1) For the sisters who are choosing a career in education....be warned, it's not the dream job that you may think it is. Even though teaching is from 8-3 for example, you work MUCH MORE than the regular 35/40 hr work week because you ALWAYS end up taking work home. I've seen even the MOST experienced teachers loose their cool sometimes over the workload (Islamic Schools and otherwise). Bottom line is, it's stressful and not as easy or convenient as it may seem, so be prepared.

However, on a lighter note, it is one of the most spiritually/emotionally rewarding jobs in which you really feel like the Ummah is benefitting from your talents.

(2) The society we are living in now NEEDS some career women. I mean, for those sisters who want to be teachers, that's a career. We need more female doctors in certain fields, that's a career. We need females in a lot of fields that would serve the Muslim community in North America. At the same time, we also NEED good mothers who are willing to give 100% of their time and devotion to their home and children. Some women are fit for one job and not for another, or for both. Who says that if a woman chooses to give up her career to focus more on child rearing that she'll be successful and her children will be angels?

Bottom line is: Women (as well as everyone else) need to realize their talents and ignore any social pressure that tells you to be a career woman or a homemaker or a super woman or whatever else you feel everyone else expects you to be. Just make sure that what you're doing would please Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala and that you're doing it for the right intention.

(3) As for the brothers (it's really great that they chose to start this thread), there's all kinds of people out there. If you think that a homemaker would better suit you, that's fine. If you feel a career woman is your cup of chai, then that's good for you. The most important thing, in either case, is that you make sure that you BOTH are in an arangement that makes first Allah and then you BOTH happy.

Just because some people think that careers, women and marriage don't mix, doesn't mean it applies to everyone. We've seen through this great thread that there are all kinds of examples out there, it's just a matter of finding your own place. We can't all conform to one standard. That would make life hard on ALL of us.....especially when looking for a woman's doctor http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon7.gif.

HiBz EsSenSe ©
02-14-2007, 12:34 AM
For the sisters who are choosing a career in education....be warned, it's not the dream job that you may think it is. Even though teaching is from 8-3 for example, you work MUCH MORE than the regular 35/40 hr work week because you ALWAYS end up taking work home. I've seen even the MOST experienced teachers loose their cool sometimes over the workload (Islamic Schools and otherwise). Bottom line is, it's stressful and not as easy or convenient as it may seem, so be prepared. .Ur Post was great, Just 1 Comment, Thats why i choose Special/General 'Early Childhood Ed" <- No Set Cirricullum = Work stays in the Classroom, nothing comes home with u, Alhamdulilah

Sirius1
02-14-2007, 12:47 AM
salam alaykum,
on the contrary i have seen and met men,muslim brothers ,who want career women as wives.I dont know if this is right or wrong, but i wonder why.
Also,i believe that religous men should try to be "jack of all trades,master of all" in the sense that they should at least try to reach the minimum in all aspects.In essecne they should strive hard to continue to make the prophet their role model.

May Allah make it easyYeah I have also heard about men who are like that. The other day, this aunty was telling my Mom about an individual who had come to propose some girl. He was specifically looking for a girl who had a job. Allah knows best about his reasons.

Perhaps, the brothers can give us some insight on why some men do that. :)

SiBgha_z
02-14-2007, 11:45 AM
Ur Post was great, Just 1 Comment, Thats why i choose Special/General 'Early Childhood Ed" <- No Set Cirricullum = Work stays in the Classroom, nothing comes home with u, Alhamdulilah

No hibz, this is just like being in any other teaching field. There is a lot of work that you have to do outside of the class. Updating student evals., thinking of creative ideas that'll interest the population you are working with [special ed.]

SiBgha_z
02-14-2007, 11:55 AM
At the end of the day though, we are both weak and need to engage in a healthy dialogue as to how to conquer the Shaytaan in us.

wallahualim.

Some of these points have been mentioned but I'll say it anyway. As far as I'm concerned:
Even though we try to maintain our identity, we are still part of the same culture here in the West. We get influenced by the same things even though we try to not let them get to us. While growing up, some us of have seen our mothers as career women [working outside the house] or as 'homemakers' [a challenging job nonetheless], and have formed/based our idea of either category accordingly. Anyhow, what might appeal to me, might not to another sister. I think if you are used to working before your marriage then it's best to work part time afterwards, or even if you keep that full time job, within a year or so, cut down on the hours. WAllahu 'Alam. Because when I think of myself as being responsible for the house, for the kids, then I can't see myself working these long hours, still come home and cook, clean AND have that relationship with the kids where they don't feel neglected. No matter what, I would never want to put them through day care/babysitting [unless ofcourse there's a situation where the woman has to work for financial reasons or has been widowed. To those women I say, mashaAllah props to you]

*Sabrina*
02-14-2007, 12:30 PM
(1) For the sisters who are choosing a career in education....be warned, it's not the dream job that you may think it is. Even though teaching is from 8-3 for example, you work MUCH MORE than the regular 35/40 hr work week because you ALWAYS end up taking work home. I've seen even the MOST experienced teachers loose their cool sometimes over the workload (Islamic Schools and otherwise). Bottom line is, it's stressful and not as easy or convenient as it may seem, so be prepared.

However, on a lighter note, it is one of the most spiritually/emotionally rewarding jobs in which you really feel like the Ummah is benefitting from your talents.
This is indeed an interesting thread :)...just wanted to chime in to support this point - many people assume education is the ideal career for women, you work school hours 8-3, while your kids are in school, then you come home with them, etc, etc - I can't even count the number of times I've heard imams/scholars/speakers rally for women who want to work to become teachers. I'm all in favor, as I am a teacher myself :), but this sister's point is very true - my first year of teaching, I consistently left the house at 6am and returned home at 6pm, exhausted, physically, mentally, and emotionally...I would then continue to work for 2-3 hours each night on lesson plans, evals, parent communication, grading, materials prep, etc, etc - it's not easy, sisters (or brothers, if there are any who are planning to become teachers!). Perhaps the hardest part is that your heart is tied into your work, because you are working with children, so no matter what you do, if you are a caring person and you want to be a good teacher, you will put in the time and effort to be one, and you won't be able to leave your work at the "office" at the end of the day...

Ur Post was great, Just 1 Comment, Thats why i choose Special/General 'Early Childhood Ed" <- No Set Cirricullum = Work stays in the Classroom, nothing comes home with u, AlhamdulilahNo hibz, this is just like being in any other teaching field. There is a lot of work that you have to do outside of the class. Updating student evals., thinking of creative ideas that'll interest the population you are working with [special ed.]I have to agree with this sis...my major was early childhood ed and early childhood special ed too...however, I did teach 1st and 2nd grades, not pre-K or pre-school, but if you're doing special ed, your work load automatically will increase - working with special needs children is *hard* work, though immensely fulfilling...

That said, like the sis said, I would say it's hands-down one of the most rewarding professions...all that work is worth it...BUT there's no way I can imagine being married (which I am) and working full-time as a new teacher
(which I did prior to getting married)...so just as a pre-caution to sisters, it's not a simple 8-3 job like so many people think it is, there's much more to it than that...

However, it gets a a whole lot easier after the 1st year! I actually used to leave school some days right after the kids did my 2nd year! With time, it becomes easier, but it will never be a job that you can just leave at work, there will inevitably be times and situations where you'll find yourself bringing work home...which I think is okay, you just have to learn how to balance that with your other household duties, if that is the path you choose to take...

spana3rabia
02-14-2007, 02:24 PM
i'm really loving these recent posts! masha Allah. I;m really learning alot thru these different point of views. opening my mind to different possibilities... good jobb sisters(not to be sexist, but all i see are sisters postin)

Yaser Birjas
02-14-2007, 10:42 PM
Alhamdulillah, I just want to thank you all for this very interesting and mature discussion. May Allah increase you all in Iman and Ilm.

Even though the thread started with a comparison between a career woman vs. gamer man...I see that the discussion turned into one direction and that is the advantage or disadvantage of marrying a career woman.

Inamal Dunya Fana
02-14-2007, 10:58 PM
Well, on that note then....let's talk about the gamer man.

What's up with brothers and PS or computer games?

Whatever happened to manly hobbies, like chopping wood and building stuff?!?!

...hehehe

Nadeem R
02-14-2007, 11:01 PM
while i agree a balance can be acheived in the household, the one thing that scares me most is the future of ones children, and how a much needed healthy relationship between spouses can be maintained in this immoral enviornment. I'm still trying to imagine a practical outline of how an average week would flow in a healthy family, and what sacrifices both man and woman have to make. This is why I named this post career woman vs gamer man. I think both men and women need to sacrfice these aspects of their life. Brothers these days are very playful, thus the name Gamers. I'm surprised no-one posted anything regarding the 'faults' of brothers, which were spoken of in the class. Does this prove something? Are we totally irrelevent in the family sphere? Does all this discourse over only women's issues mean they are the beginning and end of a family?


anyway...i'd like to mention one verse dat always rings in my mind when it comes to family and that is the verse of when Yaqub (as) was on his death bed. He asked his children "who will you worship after I am gone", to which they replied "we will worship your Lord, and the Lord of your father, and Ibrahim, and Ismail, and Ishaaq, and He is One Lord, and we are from among the Muslims."

With this verse in mind, I guess the real issue is, when you you die, what state will your children be in? Will they be on Tawheed? We ask Allah (swt) to bless us with children that will carry on this Deen, and to give us the understanding to live a family life that will help us to achieve this, so when we die, we die in peace, and with confidence that we have children who will be a proof for us, and not against us.

I guess my concern should be not so much on how to construct this reality by trying to cover all grounds, but rather how to put more Tawakkul in Allah (swt).

WallahuAlim.

Nadeem R
02-14-2007, 11:06 PM
Whatever happened to manly hobbies, like chopping wood and building stuff?!?!

...hehehewell....now that a question has been thrown this way, I will have to ponder over this....response to come inshaAllah

Memoona
02-14-2007, 11:45 PM
Well, on that note then....let's talk about the gamer man.

What's up with brothers and PS or computer games?

Whatever happened to manly hobbies, like chopping wood and building stuff?!?!

...heheheA friends mother once said "Men born and raised in the US are not 'real men'."
I thought that was an interesting comment ... and I can see why she would think so. But then another interesting point is that alot of sisters born and raised here don't want men who were born and raised outside of the US. a point to ponder over ...

Sirius1
02-14-2007, 11:47 PM
Shaykh Yaser hasn't commented on Khadijah's (ra) example, so I suppose her example wasn't being used incorrectly. Alhamdulillah.

Memoona
02-15-2007, 12:11 AM
while i agree a balance can be acheived in the household, the one thing that scares me most is the future of ones children, and how a much needed healthy relationship between spouses can be maintained in this immoral enviornment. I'm still trying to imagine a practical outline of how an average week would flow in a healthy family, and what sacrifices both man and woman have to make. This is why I named this post career woman vs gamer man. I think both men and women need to sacrfice these aspects of their life. Brothers these days are very playful, thus the name Gamers. I'm surprised no-one posted anything regarding the 'faults' of brothers, which were spoken of in the class. Does this prove something? Are we totally irrelevent in the family sphere? Does all this discourse over only women's issues mean they are the beginning and end of a family? Like people stated before everyone wants different things. Some men want a career woman, some men don't mind a career woman, some men don't want a career woman. Likewise some woman want a career, and some don't and some wish to work part-time. So it all goes with what matches you best and you should go with that.

Though for the sisters, I'm still in favor of if your children, spouse, or household affairs are suffering then you should be willing to cut down your hours, if not leave your career for a while, until you can manage it. Though at the same time brothers shouldn't be workaholics, or your children, spouse, and household will suffer.

Starting on the faults of the brothers ... are you sure you guys can handle that?


anyway...i'd like to mention one verse dat always rings in my mind when it comes to family and that is the verse of when Yaqub (as) was on his death bed. He asked his children "who will you worship after I am gone", to which they replied "we will worship your Lord, and the Lord of your father, and Ibrahim, and Ismail, and Ishaaq, and He is One Lord, and we are from among the Muslims."
What's interesting about this post is that the ayah in Quran you stated is that of the sons going to their father, or rather the father calling his sons to make sure they are on the straight path.

However, how many men today take such an active role in the education (islaamic and otherwise) of their children?
They mostly leave it up to their wives.

I remember doing the tafsir of Surah Yusuf in Br. Shakiels class and he pointed out how Yusuf (alayhisalaam) felt so comfortable going to his father for advice. And how now a days if a son goes to his father with a question or for advice the father just brushes him off or sends him to the mother. He emphasized fathers taking a more active role and interest in their children. ESPECIALLY when it comes to seeking knowledge of the deen.

On another point, when I was taking a tajweed class, the teacher went over the importance of learning tajweed. One of the points he mentioned was that you will be able to teach your children the correct way of reciting Quran, and when they don't understand a rule you'll be able to explain it to them. If you create this bond with them when they are young, they will come to you more and more to learn the deen and seek advice. One thing he pointed out was that if you study hadith and go back to the chain of narrations many of the chains are like, "I heard from my father, who heard from his father, who heard from his father, who heard it from the messenger of Allah (salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam)" Their fathers took such an active role in teaching their children this deen.

And the question come back, how many men today take such an active role in the education (islaamic and otherwise) of their children?

And Allah Knows Best

Nadeem R
02-15-2007, 06:38 AM
actually, maybe we can't handle the assults, perhaps this thread should be closed here.....where is bintKawther...quick...someone pick a fight

Memoona
02-15-2007, 08:40 AM
actually, maybe we can't handle the assults, perhaps this thread should be closed here.....where is bintKawther...quick...someone pick a fightCome on the shaykh just complemented us on this mature discussion ...

Alhamdulillah, I just want to thank you all for this very interesting and mature discussion. May Allah increase you all in Iman and Ilm.

Even though the thread started with a comparison between a career woman vs. gamer man...I see that the discussion turned into one direction and that is the advantage or disadvantage of marrying a career woman.Waiting for another response (and remember let's keep it interesting and mature) ;) ...

Yaser Birjas
02-15-2007, 03:26 PM
Shaykh Yaser hasn't commented on Khadijah's (ra) example, so I suppose her example wasn't being used incorrectly. Alhamdulillah.

First of all Khadijah radiyaAllahu anha cannot be taken an example here for two things:
One: she married the Messenger of Allah before Islam and before he was sent to us
and the practices of the Messenger of Allah are not counted part of His legal conduct if they happened before Islam.
Two: there are no reports to what she did and how she handled her trade besides hiring trustworthy men to run the business for her and there is no objection to that in Islam.

Second: The issue here is not about halal, haram to look for a legal Islamic justification for women to pursue a career. It's about preference of men to marry a homemaker wife or a career woman.
As you have already seen in this discussion this preference is a universal culture not necessarily an exclusive Islamic culture. As a matter of fact it is probably more accurate to say it is a male culture.

Islam does not object to women seeking career if they observe the legal means of doing it and avoid falling into haram, of course with the consent of their wali in general. What type of career? How hard or easy is it to achieve? That is not the discussion.

Again it's not about halal, haram…it's about men…do they prefer a career woman or not? This is a discussion of the reality on the ground.

If women chose to pursue a career then they are risking their chances with men. That doesn't mean that men are villains or evil or controlling…it only means that they are thinking naturally and like normal men.

And Allah knows best.

Nadeem R
02-15-2007, 04:22 PM
Well, on that note then....let's talk about the gamer man.

What's up with brothers and PS or computer games?

Whatever happened to manly hobbies, like chopping wood and building stuff?!?!

...hehehe
well obviously, we live in a different world. Where 'chopping' wood and 'building' and 'hunting' used to be necessities, they've become things of entertainment; so dats the first defense I can offer. I think this generation of brothers can attest to the fact that had our life continued the way it was from age 8-14, we would have been more 'manlier' in some sense (sisters stop laughing). The key factor is technology, and we didn't have so much to distract us at that age. I remember in 3rd grade when the first CD-ROM came out, and today its Blue-Ray DVD. Technology has truly taken over our minds, and I think this is also do to the fact that we have delayed getting married. We've supplemented one thing for another, and its sad, its pathetic, and I offer no excuse for it. I think we as a generation should focus on getting our children married straight out of high school, and not send them off to college directly. Anyone who has finished college knows that it was a complete joke. For those who did not work during college, they know how much free time they had. What we need instead, in my opinion, is to push our kids to get a job, go to school, and be married....then and only then can we produce real men.

wallahualim...gotta roll out.

Melody
02-15-2007, 04:47 PM
Bismillah

There's this saying: "If you can't beat them join them"

I say, why not enjoin in the activities that your spouse likes? Theres nothing wrong with playing video games (Xbox360 or Nintendo Wii). Theres also nothing wrong with going shopping (that is for a reasonable amount of time :)) At the same time, you have to remember that you aren't supposed to do EVERYTHING with your spouse. Keep in mind, everyone likes to have their space. You can't keep your husband to yourself and not 'allow' him to hang out with his friends. If he likes playing video games with them, let him! :)

Its about compromise. The title of this thread is again a competition. In fact, they aren't opposites of one another.

My Two Cents :D

SiBgha_z
02-15-2007, 05:44 PM
I think we as a generation should focus on getting our children married straight out of high school, and not send them off to college directly.


I don't know about getting them married right after hiSchool. Some of us weren't mature enough at the age of 18 to take on all the responsibilities that marriage comes with.

Anyone who has finished college knows that it was a complete joke. For those who did not work during college, they know how much free time they had.


Tru Tru and tru.


What we need instead, in my opinion, is to push our kids to get a job, go to school, and be married....then and only then can we produce real men.

wallahualim...gotta roll out.

If they don't go to school, chances of them getting a decent job would be minimum. And I don't know if it's a good idea pushing someone to get married to make them "real men."
Maybe if they get married during college, hopefully after having matured a bit. I still don't know about the job responsibility though. Even if the brothers are willing to get married with whatever little they make, let's face it, most sisters and their parents would not =/

I do disagree with parents who push their kids to get their Masters at least before they get them married. To me, That's just having Messed up priorities.

Melody
02-15-2007, 06:02 PM
Bismillah

Anyone who has finished college knows that it was a complete joke.Umm what college did you go to? believe me, it was no joke!

Memoona
02-16-2007, 09:14 AM
I don't know about getting them married right after hiSchool. Some of us weren't mature enough at the age of 18 to take on all the responsibilities that marriage comes with.I think the reason for this is that because parents, more specifically mothers, don't "train" their kids to be ready for marriage. So by the time their daughters are 22 or older they still don't know how to cook (by cooking I don't mean that u know how to prepare a dish, I mean, actually being able to put dinner on the table everyday), how to properly clean, dealing with children, basically how to maintain and manage a household. Rather they want their daughters to focus on their school.

However, Yemeni's (for the most part) have this down packed. They teach their daughters how to cater and prepare for an entire village by the time they're 13. But then they don't allow their daughters to get an education. (Im not sure how rampant this is but I know i've met a whole yemeni family where the 3 sons go to school and everything, but by the time the daughters finish 8th grade the parents take them out of school, and this is here in the US)

So basically there are two extremes. We need to find the balance, send your daughters to college and get an education and all, but at the same time make sure you are training them so they're able to run a household.

*Thats just my point of view.


If they don't go to school, chances of them getting a decent job would be minimum. And I don't know if it's a good idea pushing someone to get married to make them "real men."
Maybe if they get married during college, hopefully after having matured a bit. I still don't know about the job responsibility though. Even if the brothers are willing to get married with whatever little they make, let's face it, most sisters and their parents would not =/
I don't think its about pushing them to get married to be "real men" but pushing them to become "real men" early on and then getting them married early as well.

The reason both brothers and sisters don't mature early on is because in America and Europe, (and now going global) there is the concept of adolesence, where you get to have fun and do what u want. I'll post about this later on when I get home, I wanna read through my psych book, cuz it raised alot of interesting points.


I do disagree with parents who push their kids to get their Masters at least before they get them married. To me, That's just having Messed up priorities.Whose getting the masters, brothers or sisters?
If the parents are pushing their sons to get their masters first I agree thats messed up. I think he should get married if he can afford it and is mature enough, in college, and if not then definitely right after college when he has a job and he can work full time and work towards his masters part time.

If the parents are pushing their daughters to get their masters before they get married (though this is a rare case) I think the sister needs to be open and honest with her parents about what she wants, and that she should get married. Also, keep in mind that their are sisters out there doing their masters and they are not married yet. But that's not because they want to finish their masters before they are married but because she couldn't find a good brother to marry, and instead of sitting home, she's pursuing her masters.

And Allah Knows Best.

Melody
02-16-2007, 10:04 AM
Bismillah

whether college is a joke or not, it really depends on the person and their goals. There are some people who want an A in every class and others are content with a B(if they can get it by pulling an all nighter, then why not)-I think its more than that. Some people take things slow because they want a 4.0. Others want to move on to the next phase and have a pressure on them to finish in a certain amount of time.

Hala
02-19-2007, 12:25 PM
Tayybah has officially brought back the FOL/Love Notes discussions. Way to go!

Memoona
02-19-2007, 07:17 PM
Tayybah has officially brought back the FOL/Love Notes discussions. Way to go!lol ... walhamdulillah ... but i think it is slowly dying ... my post was the last relevant post ... any takers to revive this thread???

Sirius1
02-19-2007, 09:46 PM
Jazakallah khair for the explanation Shaykh Yaser.


I had a question about this part:


If women chose to pursue a career then they are risking their chances with men. That doesn't mean that men are villains or evil or controlling…it only means that they are thinking naturally and like normal men. The reasons for why men would want a woman who stays home and takes care of the kids are understood. Their expectation could perhaps be also called a normal one.

However, what I was talking about was the remarks made at some places in this thread...which said something along the lines of ‘If women work, men will not feel needed. It will hurt their ego and they will feel intimidated and insecure. Therefore women must not work.’

So my concern was about the legitimacy for this concern for the man’s ego…and his feelings of ‘intimidation/insecurity’ and perceived threat of working women. Some people also seem to be calling this a ‘natural’ reaction. My question is--does this 'ego-factor' have any basis in Islam?

From what I understand, such feelings aren’t very ‘natural’, as the Prophet (sa) himself married Khadijah (ra), a business woman. (In today’s world, this can be translated as a woman who pursues a career and makes her own living by legitimate means, of course). Later on in his life he (sa) is also reported to have appreciated the way Khadijah (ra) had spent her wealth to support the Prophet (sa) with the mission of Islam. So, it seems that this kind of feeling among men is not very natural as its not matching with the Prophet's (sa). But that's just my understanding, which could be lacking.

Will you please share your opinion on this matter? Jazakallah Khairan.

Faizan
02-25-2007, 12:04 AM
SO all this debating has been done and what not



where do we go from here????


What can we comprimise on and what have we establised from this debate?

Nadeem R
03-01-2007, 11:09 PM
where do we go from here.... I think the dialogue only becomes truly relevent when you have a potential spouse in front of you. We can all act tough on a forum, but reality may be different. Perhaps some men would simply given in to whatever lifestyle his wife chooses. But I think this discussion has taught us that we shouldn't rush into making a decision on a spouse until these issue are ironed out completely. But then again, its all theory until you're truly married...so I guess fromt this point we all shut up and get married, or as the Sheikh would say, to cease being "LOSERS"

Imtiaz
03-02-2007, 08:39 AM
Ameen, thumma Ameen...fyi..i really gotta catch up on this thread.

AbdelRahmanMurphy
03-02-2007, 11:48 AM
I would absolutely love for my wife to teach at an Islamic school. Raking in the hasanaat, as well as making some cash on the side - never hurt anyone. And our kids would obviously, insha Allah, be attending the school as well.

mahin
03-02-2007, 01:32 PM
That would be the ideal..AbdelRahman..especially if she was teaching Islaamic studies...so you'd have the hasanaat, cash on the side..and she would always be learning deen for the class.

mahin
03-02-2007, 01:33 PM
keeping in mind though of course when the kids reach school age...that would make the most sense..not sure about it if the kids were still like 2, 3 years old.

Nadeem R
03-02-2007, 06:01 PM
...man you brothers never stop dreaming.....but heck I don't think I ever will....that is until...

Nida A.
03-03-2007, 08:57 PM
As far as men not feeling needed if their wife is a 'career woman,' I think its the complete opposite. I feel that a wife needs her husband more than ever if she works, to take care of the family/household. It's very stressful for a woman to work and have to do everything on her own, she shouldn't have to. But she should also know when to ask for help and not try to be SuperWoman.
Both the husband and wife has worked very hard throughout college and it is only fair that they both benefit from it. The husband shouldn't feel that his wife will need him less now that she is making her own money and is independent. Rather the wife really does need to make it clear that they are co-dependent.
Gamer man, eh, not too sure about that...

Salaam

Siraaj
03-30-2007, 06:07 PM
I wonder how many people in this discussion are married :D Anyway, here's an eye-opener - not everyone is going to have the same preferences. Some people will like a career woman (some brothers actually expect it), and some would prefer not to have one.

Some women want to be career women, and someone think the idea is horrible. Some expect the man to be the main breadwinner, and some don't. So long as the proper ettiquettes are observed, there's really no "right" or "wrong" here when talking about halaal preferences.

Me, I prefer to be the main breadwinner, and since it's my right as a husband, I forbid my wife from working. By the same token, my wife doesn't want to work and likes being a homemaker, and believes the man should be the main breadwinner under normal circumstances. That's us. Others might prefer something else. Nothing wrong with it.

Siraaj

Yusrah Uthman
03-30-2007, 06:56 PM
Me, I prefer to be the main breadwinner, and since it's my right as a husband, I forbid my wife from working. By the same token, my wife doesn't want to work and likes being a homemaker, and believes the man should be the main breadwinner under normal circumstances. That's us. Others might prefer something else. Nothing wrong with it.

Siraajas salaam aleykum wr wb

Erm.. brother Siraj, so long as your wife does not fall under the trap of neglecting you and your family, how is it your right to forbid something for her that is her right? What if she wants to be a teacher or advisor? I think that would deprive your wife of building the morals and lessons in life to raise your future children. Just my opinion.
:D

As salamu aleykum wr wb

Siraaj
03-30-2007, 07:11 PM
as salaam aleykum wr wb

Erm.. brother Siraj, so long as your wife does not fall under the trap of neglecting you and your family, how is it your right to forbid something for her that is her right? What if she wants to be a teacher or advisor? I think that would deprive your wife of building the morals and lessons in life to raise your future children. Just my opinion.
:D

As salamu aleykum wr wb

One person's right is another's responsibility - if she has a right to a career, am I or someone else responsible for seeing to that right? If so, what's the evidence?

Another question - is it haraam to prevent a wife from working (this is all very theoretical by the way)? How far does the wife's obedience to the husband extend? Can he forbid permissible things in normal circumstances, or can she contradict him if she feels like it?

I'll not answer these questions here because I'm not the Shaykh, but I know what answers I follow, and my wording above, if you give it very little thought, reflect the understanding and practice of both myself and my wife =)

Siraaj

*Beautiful Patience*
03-30-2007, 10:52 PM
Hmmm... Rephrase the question. Can cause commotion.

Salam
I Belive its many of these reasons, I would want to Share my knowledge that i learnt to better the Ummah, and help my future-husband in paying the bills, i also think im the kind of person who is open and warm, so why not share thoes skills with my sisters!

I do agree that, we should not be working specific types of jobs that draw attention and encourage haram!

At the end of the day i think we sisters just want a secure home, loving husband and some kind of activity outside the house so were not always bored! http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yusrah Uthman
03-31-2007, 05:21 AM
One person's right is another's responsibility - if she has a right to a career, am I or someone else responsible for seeing to that right? If so, what's the evidence?

Another question - is it haraam to prevent a wife from working (this is all very theoretical by the way)? How far does the wife's obedience to the husband extend? Can he forbid permissible things in normal circumstances, or can she contradict him if she feels like it?

I'll not answer these questions here because I'm not the Shaykh, but I know what answers I follow, and my wording above, if you give it very little thought, reflect the understanding and practice of both myself and my wife =)

Siraaj
wa aleykum as salaam

Well, so long as there is an agreement between both of you in that way of life, alhamdulilah. People have different preferences and we cannot force each others' down other people's throat.

As salamu aleykum rw wb

Yusrah Uthman
03-31-2007, 05:21 AM
At the end of the day i think we sisters just want a secure home, loving husband and some kind of activity outside the house so were not always bored! http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
exactly :D

Sabiqoon
04-02-2007, 11:34 AM
As salaam aleikum!

I'm a guy but I agree with the sisters. But for a lot of guys their usually immature with the guys because that's how guys are. But when it comes down to it they can be mature and won't break under pressure that women might not be able to endure.

One thing from the Sunnah I take is the example of the Mother of the believers Khadijah is probably the ideal wife and Rasulullah's (s) long lasting love of her even after her death is a sign of how good a wife she was.

As for the sisters...most guys are looking for a headstrong sister, who is both modest but assertive and yet Islamically active. The case example I give is how some brothers have a thing for sister Yvonne Ridley (the Islam channel lady)...not because of looks or anything but personality and strong traits. I know that sounds weird and perhaps well astaghfirullah but that's just kind of how it is.

Career woman can be seen by guys as a threat to their authority, however I know a very deeny family where the father drove a schoolbus for many years while his wife finished medicine and once she finished medicine and started practicing he started staying at home. So it's definitely possible. I like to imagine that falling in love is the simple solution that Allah has provided to make our choosing a spouse much easier.



subhanallaah, at your example. That just shows humbleness on part of the brother and probably steadfastness on part of the sister.


i dont think brothers like headstrong women with strong will and doing islaamic work.

Some might but alot do not want sisters who are in positions of authority or who are in high demanding careers.
This offcourse is based on my own experiences and what I have heard of.

Many sisters in the medical profession have found getting married very very difficult indeed and it had nothing to do with them being not religious becuase they were involved in islaamic work and da'wah and learning about islaam and practicing islaam. However, it was more of the fact that even medical doctor men wanted wives that will stay at home to look after the children and perform household duties, which is their primary responsibility.

Sabiqoon
04-02-2007, 11:48 AM
I second that!

As for Prophet (saw) working for Khadijah (ra)- its true and a great example but he was a Prophet and she- the mother of all Believers. If we are to expect our husbands to be like the Prophet (saw) we must first prove to them by being like his wives in character. Allahu’alam

Allah has programmed a husband to be the provider and to be needed. We as women cannot simply take that away from them. If they wants to provide, than why not take them up on the offer- and hold them to it?! We must also keep in mind that it is our husband that will be questioned about ‘our’ deeds on the DOJ- not the other way around. Due to that they rather have us stay at home and take care of the family as compared to go out and face the fitnah of this world and dealing with it on our own.

Questions for the sisters: if you want to be a career woman, why is that you do? What is the reason, yanee- is it because you want to practice what you have learned in school? Is it because you want to show the world that you are just as good as the men? Is it because you want to help the community and the Muslim Ummah? Is it because everyone does it, its normal now and you don’t want to be looked down upon by your peers? Or is it because you want to share the burden with your husband to provide for the house-hold?-- ask your self and be honest.

I don’t personally have anything against the career women slash wives but there are a lot of sisters that do both BUT for the wrong reasons. But again at the same time – there are a lot of those sisters who do it for the right reasons and succeed.

To sum it up- get your priorities straight and live by them.

A quote I often say to the sisters on this matter is, “ Funny business, a women’s career: the things you drop on the way up the ladder so you can move faster. You forget you’ll need them again when you get back to being a woman. It’s one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we’ve got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we’ve had to or wanted.” Said by Joseph Mankiewiez.

And Allah Jalo Jalalo knows best :)

That just made me laugh :D




Look honestly, I want to be a housewife.

However, when I was in highschool I didnt think about marriage stuff. I wanted to be a doctor, etc.
I came from a family where my mom wanted to be a doctor and was not able to due to financial reasons. My parents stressed education a lot

secondly, there is always a need for female muslim doctors and there is a scarcity.
WHne I was living in Saudi Arabia, I saw niqabed women practicing medicine, this sorta motivated me.

My personality on the other hand was such that a non-muslim friend said, I cannot see you doing anything else except being a lazy housewife.

And after years and years of school, there are times where I am like please can I just stay home.

HOwever, my parents say that since Allaah gave me skill. I owe to use this and serve humanity. So taht is why I am still in school.


I am not trying to prove anything to the world. I really did this to please my parents and to utilize whatever Allaah gave me. I know men are qawwamoon.
But I realized afterwards it was harder for women in medical field to find righteous brothers for marriage.

Nadeem R
04-15-2007, 10:37 PM
Men are from Makkah, Women are from Madinah....something I found on the brothers' Gem board at Evolution of Fiqh.

The implications are, the makkan ayaat are short and to the point, like men in conversation. While the madani ayaat are very long...no comment there

abuyahya
04-23-2007, 06:40 AM
[QUOTE=Faizan]Assalamu Alaikum,

First of all and always, Allahu Alam. My opinion on the matter is that it is from the fitrah of man to want to take care of his wife, to provide for her, to protect her. It is part of his love and responsibility to her. In return he wants her to take care of his home and their children. To protect his honor when he is gone and to educate his children. Obviously there is more to it than that... im just listing a few things.

Salam calikum and Jazakullah kiran Faizan. You literally took the words out of my mouth and i couldnt have said it better but id like to add a few things. If the brother is making enough to financially support his family than why would it be necessary for the sister to work. But a sister brought up an excellent point which was what do you define as a career woman and she gave examples, and that actually changed my view on the whole career woman. I guess what us men mean is out in the non-islamic world like at an business office or the corporate world where she is surround by non-mahrams and even worse- non-muslims, like that i wouldnt be able to stand and its not because i am doubting her but if i know one thing is i know men, so its her being around non-muslim men and non-mahrams. Like if she was an islamic school teacher or other professions within the islamic community it would be great but personally i wouldnt want my wife out their in the "corporate world", actually i wouldnt want myself in that enivronment. What it comes down to is that the mans reponsibilty is to provide for the family and if he is doing so sufficently than why strain yourself especially when it may put your responibilty as a woman in jeopardy!

*Beautiful Patience*
04-25-2007, 10:19 AM
[QUOTE=Faizan]
If the brother is making enough to financially support his family than why would it be necessary for the sister to work.I do agree that if the man makes enough money to support the household the woman should not work, but i do think she should pursue education still! Education in the islamic perspective as well as in the practical world. For who will the woman of the Ummah turn to, when they need a female doctor? or woman of other professions?
As to the second reason i want to work *inshallah*, would be to provide for my own family, my mom and Alhamdulilha i have a big family living here. Plus thoes living back home? I do belive this would be a strain on the husband for him to try and provide for his immidiate family and that of his in laws too.
*i do plan on moving to an islamic country tho*
Of course Allah (s.w.t) Knows best, and im not saying there should be a power struggle at home, becuase who wouldnt want to stay home all day, rather then go out and work http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Hermana
04-25-2007, 03:17 PM
This is a really interesting discussion. I think one thing that hasn’t been brought up is the whole idea of working outside the home out of necessity. I think most women would really love the option of staying and home and giving their family 100% of their time and effort, but many women-especially in the West- don’t have that option (including Muslim women). I have heard an estimates stating that as many as 30% of Americans have trouble making ends meet. Many people are not in a social-economic situation where working outside the home is an option. For many people, it is a must.

Someone asked, “if you want to be a career woman, why is that you do? What is the reason, yanee- is it because you want to practice what you have learned in school? Is it because you want to show the world that you are just as good as the men? Is it because you want to help the community and the Muslim Ummah? Is it because everyone does it, its normal now and you don’t want to be looked down upon by your peers? Or is it because you want to share the burden with your husband to provide for the house-hold?-- ask your self and be honest”.

Sometimes it’s is simply a matter of being a career woman for the sake of survival. It’s like dude, I don’t want to be homeless or on welfare! Everyone has a unique situation with regard to their rizq or sustenance. Situations and expectations sometimes change. I knew a sister who married a man who wanted her to work outside the home (shocking I know)! Someone may be wealthy and has a wife who works outside the home. Another person may be poor and can manage to get by on a single income. Either way, we shouldn’t make sweeping generalizations about homemakers or career women.

spana3rabia
04-25-2007, 04:29 PM
well-stated point ^

so...majority of brothers are against career women...interesting....so we're supposed to stay home coz thats where we belong right. lol. joke joke.

i dont like how alot of brothers act like they the boss over all things. some brothers need to acknowledge that they aint right all the time. [I am not singling out the brotehrs on the forums. i am making a generalizations. not all men are like that. just some]and there are many ways to contribute to society and doing what you love without jeapordizing your whole family life.

abuyahya
04-26-2007, 09:21 AM
Education in the islamic perspective as well as in the particle world. For who will the woman of the Ummah turn to, when they need a female doctor? or woman of other professions?
Manshallah, thats an amazing point,

Nadeem R
04-30-2007, 09:23 PM
i think brothers suffer just as much, if not moreso, from the work enviornment, it takes a huge toll on one's imaan.....what's the solution, the husband and wife should start a business together!

eternalmuslimah
04-30-2007, 09:26 PM
i think brothers suffer just as much, if not moreso, from the work enviornment, it takes a huge toll on one's imaan.....what's the solution, the husband and wife should start a business together!
haha sounds good...subhaanAllah

eternalmuslimah
04-30-2007, 09:29 PM
Men are from Makkah, Women are from Madinah....something I found on the brothers' Gem board at Evolution of Fiqh.

The implications are, the makkan ayaat are short and to the point, like men in conversation. While the madani ayaat are very long...no comment there

:D

i enjoyed reading that

Nadeem R
05-01-2007, 05:28 PM
the sheikh made a great point about education in this country, he said basically that it is setup to serve the parents, not the children. Meaning it is there so the parents can work 9-5 and not have to worry about their children. Education of a child does not take more than 3-4 hours a day, the rest of the time children spend in school is wasted...doing what? well, those who went to school in this country know what this time is for, what it breeds, and what it instills in the mind of a child...KUFR! I think this is what plays a major role in a couple deciding who works, and how many hours. Sacrifices must be made to drive children to the Islamic Schools, Madarasaahs, and not just opt for the local public school. AllahuAlim.

HiBz EsSenSe ©
05-01-2007, 08:00 PM
the sheikh made a great point about education in this country, he said basically that it is setup to serve the parents, not the children. Meaning it is there so the parents can work 9-5 and not have to worry about their children. Education of a child does not take more than 3-4 hours a day, the rest of the time children spend in school is wasted...doing what? well, those who went to school in this country know what this time is for, what it breeds, and what it instills in the mind of a child...KUFR! I think this is what plays a major role in a couple deciding who works, and how many hours. Sacrifices must be made to drive children to the Islamic Schools, Madarasaahs, and not just opt for the local public school. AllahuAlim.MashaAllah VERY Good Point... But Im going to take it a step further-

I've went to public school (So I know exactly what your'e saying) BUT I must say that 80% of the friends I know who went to "Islamic Schools" turned out MUCH worse .. Seriously, (SubhanAllah, even though I still agree its def more beneficial than public, But the bigger picture is it all goes back to the Upbringing AT HOME- If they go to Islam School but there isnt someone at home to establish that Islamic Foundation (not Cultural- but Islamic) from the get-go, and then be there to continue building supportive pillars on that foundation while the child is growing up..... THEN ITS NOT GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE if they go to Islamic Schools, Or even to Madina..... & The parents cant do that if they're both working (& this goes to the brothers also who work crazy hours and overtime... The Family needs them more than the extra money)

WaAllahu Ta'ala A'lam

Nadeem R
05-01-2007, 09:04 PM
I didn't want to get into the Islamic Schools, but it's really amazing, perhaps we forgot to make dua for the children, cuz the shaytaan is very rampant there, and has just cause to be; the public schools are already taken care of.

With regards to OT for brothers, that is a big thing, because like the Sheikh said in LoveNotes, this is considered an act of love for them; but it does indeed hurt the family.

The only solution, as i see it for the education of children, is REAL community building. I hope, inshaAllah, we gain the courage to build strong communities and foster real brotherhood. By having communities with families of similar goals, we can slowly alleviate the individual burden, and make it a community's goal to raise righteous children. Back in the countries our parents migrated from, the entire community raised the children, at least where I'm from, everyone had the right to beat a kid if they were out of line :-). This is a huge void that is missing in our lifestyle in America whereby we are completely isolated from each other, struggling to 'survive.' The question is are we willing to make that sacrifice? And what practical steps must we take to enact such change? Is it even feasible in this world?, where, though we live and die by 'networks' we lack the most fundamental network, the community. Perhaps we just need to convert our masajid into community centers....perhaps I'm just dreaming...

HiBz EsSenSe ©
05-01-2007, 09:38 PM
With regards to OT for brothers, that is a big thing, because like the Sheikh said in LoveNotes, this is considered an act of love for them; but it does indeed hurt the family.


The only solution, as i see it for the education of children, is REAL community building. I hope, inshaAllah, we gain the courage to build strong communities and foster real brotherhood. By having communities with families of similar goals, we can slowly alleviate the individual burden, and make it a community's goal to raise righteous children...... The question is are we willing to make that sacrifice? And what practical steps must we take to enact such change? Is it even feasible in this world?, where, though we live and die by 'networks' we lack the most fundamental network, the community. Perhaps we just need to convert our masajid into community centers....perhaps I'm just dreaming...Yes and May Allah reward them for the time and effort spent to provide for their households, but not at the expense of Islamic Upbringing


OR Perhaps Your Amongst Those Few That Are Still Awake...
\\ ~> We Are the Future <~ Lets Make a Difference//How? Brothers & Sisters must increase their knowledge & Act upon it by Following the Quran, the Sunnah of our beloved prophet sallahAllahu aleyhi wasalam, and the next 3 generations in all affairs (keeping aim of the goal, accepting nothing watered down)... Also make that the Upmost characteristics when seeking a future spouse (the future parents of our children).. If all of us do this, it in turn will affect our family, which will in turn affect our communities.. which will in turn Make us go to Allah on the day of Judgement saying "We were part in the Preservation of the Ummah" (InshaAllah)...

May Allah make us, our families, spouses, and offspring the reason for the Victory of the Deen & Grant us nothing less then Firdaws & The sight of His Magnificent Face, JallahJalaluh, Rabbul 'Alameen ... *Ameen*

Bin Wahdy
05-04-2007, 02:27 PM
You mean, as Men, we should not be jealous of our wives, and let them interact with non-mahram men? We should not be the protectors, the guardians of our wives? In the west? Are you serious.

I seriously think that all of these "Career" women (atleast those here in the west, who want to work in the west; and I mean the doctors, business majors, engineers, etc) deserve effeminate husbands, who are unjealous and unmasculine.

eternalmuslimah
05-05-2007, 01:20 AM
I seriously think that all of these "Career" women (atleast those here in the west, who want to work in the west; and I mean the doctors, business majors, engineers, etc) deserve effeminate husbands, who are unjealous and unmasculine.:o

ouch! that's kinda extreme...

AlSharif
05-05-2007, 09:39 AM
You mean, as Men, we should not be jealous of our wives, and let them interact with non-mahram men? We should not be the protectors, the guardians of our wives? In the west? Are you serious.

I seriously think that all of these "Career" women (atleast those here in the west, who want to work in the west; and I mean the doctors, business majors, engineers, etc) deserve effeminate husbands, who are unjealous and unmasculine.


As difficult as it may be, men should try very hard not be jealous because that's a weakness, its selfish and it only displays our own insecurities ... it has nothing to do with protecting and loving our wives. In fact, most jealous men are physically/verbally abusive and mentally degrading towards women. There is no other form of jealousy in a relationship, unless you wanna be all cute and lovey dovey jealous, but thats not exactly "masculine" is it?

As someone else mentioned on this post, we need women doctors. Wouldn't your wife rather go to a female doctor?

If women want to pursue careers, they should aim to be the best in their fields. The greatest role model for that would be one of the 4 most perfect women of all time, Khadija (ra). She was an intelligent & successful businesswoman who chose to marry the Prophet (saw), he accepted and loved her the most. Why people decide to ignore that is beyond me.

Umm Umaarah
05-05-2007, 11:11 AM
As difficult as it may be, men should try very hard not be jealous because that's a weakness, its selfish and it only displays our own insecurities ... it has nothing to do with protecting and loving our wives. In Islam, husbands and wives should both be jealous for their spouses.

Here's an article a sister posted about it :

REVIVING OUR SENSE OF GHEERAH
By Fatima Barakatullah

We live in societies in which most men and women have lost their sense of modesty, women are obsessed with their appearances and wear clothes to be seen by others and to attract the attention of other men even if they are married! They have lost their sense of shame. Marriage is often looked upon as oldfashioned and short term affairs and frivolous relationships are the norm, everyone waiting to attract a better partner and feeling totally justified to dump one partner for another at the drop of a hat. Feminism too has reached its peak and men and women are told to suppress their natural emotions. Men are not even embarrassed when their wives are dressed up and attract the attention of other men, they don't mind if another man sees, chats, laughs and even dances with their womenfolk and if they do mind, they are told not to be so possessive!

In Islam we have a concept of Gheerah. Gheerah is an Arabic word which means protectiveness or jealousy. It is a good type of jealousy, like when a man feels jealous or protective over his wife or sisters and other womenfolk and doesn't like other men to look at them. It is a natural inbuilt feeling Allah has given men and women. The Prophet (SAW) had the most Gheerah for his wives and all of the companions were known for their Gheerah. All Muslim men should have a collective sense of protectiveness for Muslim women as Allah says in the Qur'an: "The Men are the protectors and maintainers of women?" (Surah An-Nisaa, Ayah 34). Men who do not care about how their women behave and appear in front of other men and don't enforce hijaab upon their wives or women-folk are called Dayyooth. Being a Dayyooth is a major sin and a detailed discription of this evil characteristic can be found in adh-Dhahabee's book of Major Sins (Kitaab ul-Kabaa'ir).

A story of Gheerah

To further understand the quality of Gheerah, we can look at an incident that Asmaa' (RA) the daughter of Abu Bakr AsSiddeeq (RA) and sister of Aisha (RA), relates about herself. Abu Bakr was a wealthy merchant and he married his daughter Asmaa' to the great companion Az-Zubayr ibn al-'Awwam (RA) who was a very poor man but a man of great piety and one of the companions who were promised Paradise. Asmaa' relates: "When az-Zubayr married me, he had neither land nor wealth nor slave?", so Asmaa' had to work very hard kneading dough, going far off to get water. "And I used to carry on my head," she continues, "the date stones from the land of az-Zubair which Allah's Messenger (SAW) had endowed him and it was a distance of two miles from Madeenah. One day, as I was carrying the date-stones upon my head, I happened to meet Allah's Messenger (SAW), along with a group of his Companions. He called me and told the camel to sit down so that he could make me ride behind him. I felt shy to go with men and I remembered az-Zubair and his Gheerah and he was a man having the most Gheerah. The Messenger of Allah (SAW) understood my shyness and left. I came to az-Zubair and said: "The Messenger of Allah (SAW) met me as I was carrying date-stones upon my head and there was with him a group of his Companions. He told the camel to kneel so that I could mount it, but I felt shy and I remembered your Gheerah." So Asmaa' declined the offer made by the Prophet (SAW). Upon this az-Zubair said: "By Allah, the thought of you carrying date-stones upon your head is more severe a burden on me than you riding with him." (related in Saheeh Bukhari)

Look at the sense of dignity and modesty of Asmaa'! See how she felt shy in front of men? See how careful she was about her husband's feelings? She knew that her husband had a lot of Gheerah so she didn't want to upset him by accepting the Prophet's (SAW) help even though the Prophet was the purest of men and even though it meant bringing hardship on herself! And look at azZubair (RA), even though he had a lot of Gheerah, he didn't want to inconvenience his wife. What a beautiful relationship they had!

Nurturing our sense of Gheerah

Sometimes Muslim women don't understand if their menfolk want them to cover or if they ask them to change something about the way they dress or speak in public, thinking that the men are being overprotective. But my dear sisters! If your husband asks you not to wear a certain colour of khimaar because it brings out the beauty of your eyes, or if he wants you to cover your face - by Allah, be thankful! Be proud of the fact that your husband has a sense of Gheerah for you and that he values you and cares for your hereafter. He knows what men can be like more than you do and so never try and suppress his Gheerah in these types of matters. And his concern for you should incite your own sense of honour! Why should any man be able to see your beauty and think indecent thoughts about you? We must nurture our own and our menfolk's sense of Gheerah by behaving and dressing modestly ourselves and paying attention to their valid opinions. We expect certain behaviour from them and they expect it of us. And besides, if our husband asks us to do something that it not Haraam, we must do it.

Subhan Allah! Look at the difference between how Islam values and protects women and how cheaply women are treated outside of Islam! As Muslims we have to be careful that our Hayaa' (sense of modesty and shame) and Gheerah doesn't wear out in a society in which people have lost their Hayaa' and Gheerah.





wAllahu 'Alam

th/suraya
05-05-2007, 12:53 PM
In Islam, husbands and wives should both be jealous for their spouses.

Here's an article a sister posted about it :

REVIVING OUR SENSE OF GHEERAH
By Fatima Barakatullah

We live in societies in which most men and women have lost their sense of modesty, women are obsessed with their appearances and wear clothes to be seen by others and to attract the attention of other men even if they are married! They have lost their sense of shame. Marriage is often looked upon as oldfashioned and short term affairs and frivolous relationships are the norm, everyone waiting to attract a better partner and feeling totally justified to dump one partner for another at the drop of a hat. Feminism too has reached its peak and men and women are told to suppress their natural emotions. Men are not even embarrassed when their wives are dressed up and attract the attention of other men, they don't mind if another man sees, chats, laughs and even dances with their womenfolk and if they do mind, they are told not to be so possessive!

In Islam we have a concept of Gheerah. Gheerah is an Arabic word which means protectiveness or jealousy. It is a good type of jealousy, like when a man feels jealous or protective over his wife or sisters and other womenfolk and doesn't like other men to look at them. It is a natural inbuilt feeling Allah has given men and women. The Prophet (SAW) had the most Gheerah for his wives and all of the companions were known for their Gheerah. All Muslim men should have a collective sense of protectiveness for Muslim women as Allah says in the Qur'an: "The Men are the protectors and maintainers of women?" (Surah An-Nisaa, Ayah 34). Men who do not care about how their women behave and appear in front of other men and don't enforce hijaab upon their wives or women-folk are called Dayyooth. Being a Dayyooth is a major sin and a detailed discription of this evil characteristic can be found in adh-Dhahabee's book of Major Sins (Kitaab ul-Kabaa'ir).

A story of Gheerah

To further understand the quality of Gheerah, we can look at an incident that Asmaa' (RA) the daughter of Abu Bakr AsSiddeeq (RA) and sister of Aisha (RA), relates about herself. Abu Bakr was a wealthy merchant and he married his daughter Asmaa' to the great companion Az-Zubayr ibn al-'Awwam (RA) who was a very poor man but a man of great piety and one of the companions who were promised Paradise. Asmaa' relates: "When az-Zubayr married me, he had neither land nor wealth nor slave?", so Asmaa' had to work very hard kneading dough, going far off to get water. "And I used to carry on my head," she continues, "the date stones from the land of az-Zubair which Allah's Messenger (SAW) had endowed him and it was a distance of two miles from Madeenah. One day, as I was carrying the date-stones upon my head, I happened to meet Allah's Messenger (SAW), along with a group of his Companions. He called me and told the camel to sit down so that he could make me ride behind him. I felt shy to go with men and I remembered az-Zubair and his Gheerah and he was a man having the most Gheerah. The Messenger of Allah (SAW) understood my shyness and left. I came to az-Zubair and said: "The Messenger of Allah (SAW) met me as I was carrying date-stones upon my head and there was with him a group of his Companions. He told the camel to kneel so that I could mount it, but I felt shy and I remembered your Gheerah." So Asmaa' declined the offer made by the Prophet (SAW). Upon this az-Zubair said: "By Allah, the thought of you carrying date-stones upon your head is more severe a burden on me than you riding with him." (related in Saheeh Bukhari)

Look at the sense of dignity and modesty of Asmaa'! See how she felt shy in front of men? See how careful she was about her husband's feelings? She knew that her husband had a lot of Gheerah so she didn't want to upset him by accepting the Prophet's (SAW) help even though the Prophet was the purest of men and even though it meant bringing hardship on herself! And look at azZubair (RA), even though he had a lot of Gheerah, he didn't want to inconvenience his wife. What a beautiful relationship they had!

Nurturing our sense of Gheerah

Sometimes Muslim women don't understand if their menfolk want them to cover or if they ask them to change something about the way they dress or speak in public, thinking that the men are being overprotective. But my dear sisters! If your husband asks you not to wear a certain colour of khimaar because it brings out the beauty of your eyes, or if he wants you to cover your face - by Allah, be thankful! Be proud of the fact that your husband has a sense of Gheerah for you and that he values you and cares for your hereafter. He knows what men can be like more than you do and so never try and suppress his Gheerah in these types of matters. And his concern for you should incite your own sense of honour! Why should any man be able to see your beauty and think indecent thoughts about you? We must nurture our own and our menfolk's sense of Gheerah by behaving and dressing modestly ourselves and paying attention to their valid opinions. We expect certain behaviour from them and they expect it of us. And besides, if our husband asks us to do something that it not Haraam, we must do it.

Subhan Allah! Look at the difference between how Islam values and protects women and how cheaply women are treated outside of Islam! As Muslims we have to be careful that our Hayaa' (sense of modesty and shame) and Gheerah doesn't wear out in a society in which people have lost their Hayaa' and Gheerah.






wAllahu 'AlamThat's a nice article; jazakillahu khairan for posting it. I just hope that people don't take gheerah to an extreme where they are so overprotective that it seems like they don't trust their wives at all. "...even though he had a lot of Gheerah, he didn't want to inconvenience his wife."

Umm-Layth
05-05-2007, 01:08 PM
Bismillaah

as-Salaamu `alaykum

It seems the majority of those taking part in this discussion are speaking hypothetically. I really wonder how many of you are actually in such a situation.

Shaykh Yaser is left with a question to answer: Can a man forbid his wife from working? Insha'Allaah please answer that for those involved in this discussion. I think some of us know the answer but I know that many here need the answer as well.


Anyhow, I've seen some of the most hard working sisters try to take on working, being a full time wife/mother and studying deen just not being able to handle their responsibilities. Something some of you need to think about (and I beg of you to first get married before you make assumptions of married life) is the children. Who will take care of them if both parents are working? Sure, there are ways. The grandparents take them. The father works night shift and the mother works day shift. But how many children end up in daycares? Do you guys realize that daycares are a common thing amongst Muslims? Think about your children if anything. Live a day in the life of a 'career' woman, who is married, has kids and has all her other chores of life and see if then it is such a smart idea.

For those of you who mention that men sometimes forget their 'other' responsibilities, please think again. I think many times it is women who lose focus of their own life. Women are the ones who are responsible for the property of their husbands and are responsible for their children. If women have children, it is their duty to raise them. So before we talk about others' priorities, think about your own priorities.

It was narrated from ‘Abdullaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Each of you is a shepherd and is responsible for his flock. The ruler who is in charge of people is a shepherd and is responsible for them. The man is the shepherd of his household and is responsible for them. The woman is the shepherd of her husband’s house and child and is responsible for them. The slave is the shepherd of his master’s wealth and is responsible for it. Each of you is a shepherd and each of you is responsible for his flock.”


About men feeling jealous. This is probably due to the fact that men are naturally the maintainers of women. They are naturally the hard working ones - outside the home. It's just part of their fitrah. And I wonder how many of you have seen the type of women out there, who work and get their first amounts of cash and feel that they are liberated from their husbands. Men have honor and for anyone who knows men, who is married and has been married, they understand this. For those of you who aren't, it may be harder for you to fully grasp.

Umm-Layth
05-05-2007, 05:01 PM
As difficult as it may be, men should try very hard not be jealous because that's a weakness, its selfish and it only displays our own insecurities ... it has nothing to do with protecting and loving our wives. In fact, most jealous men are physically/verbally abusive and mentally degrading towards women. There is no other form of jealousy in a relationship, unless you wanna be all cute and lovey dovey jealous, but thats not exactly "masculine" is it?

Jealousy is natural. If not controlled it is dangerous, but without it there is something that is missing. Our Sahaba (Radhiyallaahu `anhum) were jealous and protective of their wives. Our Messenger (sallAllaahu `alayhi wa sallam) was a jealous man. It's just part of fitrah.

For you to state most jealous men are physically/verbally abusive would require that you would have taken some type of survey.

As someone else mentioned on this post, we need women doctors. Wouldn't your wife rather go to a female doctor?

From what I read in this thread, the issue isn't women getting secular education. The issue is marrying career women. It's a whole lot different.

If women want to pursue careers, they should aim to be the best in their fields. The greatest role model for that would be one of the 4 most perfect women of all time, Khadija (ra). She was an intelligent & successful businesswoman who chose to marry the Prophet (saw), he accepted and loved her the most. Why people decide to ignore that is beyond me.

She was indeed a great example. After marrying the Rasul she had his children and was a supportive homemaker. Radhiyallaahu `anha!

Sirius1
05-05-2007, 05:18 PM
I seriously think that all of these "Career" women (atleast those here in the west, who want to work in the west; and I mean the doctors, business majors, engineers, etc) deserve effeminate husbands, who are unjealous and unmasculine.I think you are speaking more out of emotion and less out of reason...

If a person were to criticize men living and working in the west, following your reasoning, they would be saying something like--

"I seriously think that all these men (who want to live and work in the west) deserve women who are loose in their chastity, women who are totally fine with their husbands living and working in an environment where the women are under-dressed. Such indecency would not be of a chaste woman's liking."

I am just saying that to make a point.

Sirius1
05-05-2007, 05:28 PM
The greatest role model for that would be one of the 4 most perfect women of all time, Khadija (ra). She was an intelligent & successful businesswoman who chose to marry the Prophet (saw), he accepted and loved her the most. Why people decide to ignore that is beyond me.Because some people believe what they want to believe which sometimes causes them to (intentionally) ignore the inaccuracy/bias of their beliefs. They only look at isolated examples in the religion that support their point rather than understanding a given topic comprehensively.

Bin Wahdy
05-05-2007, 09:11 PM
I think you are speaking more out of emotion and less out of reason...

Lets take a look at your erroneous reasoning...

If a person were to criticize men living and working in the west, following your reasoning, they would be saying something like--

"I seriously think that all these men (who want to live and work in the west) deserve women who are loose in their chastity, women who are totally fine with their husbands living and working in an environment where the women are under-dressed. Such indecency would not be of a chaste woman's liking."

I am just saying that to make a point.
The only erroneous reasoning is your assumption that you can use the same arguement against men--which is invalid. I'm not saying that you don't have a point, which was noted, but you simply cannot compare a man working in the west to a lady working in the west.

Sirius1
05-06-2007, 09:40 AM
The only erroneous reasoning is your assumption that you can use the same arguement against men--which is invalid. I'm not saying that you don't have a point, which was noted, but you simply cannot compare a man working in the west to a lady working in the west.
Why is the assumption (for using that argument against men) invalid?

Why can't a man working in the west be compared to a lady working in the west?

Please provide some support for your statements.

Abu Abdillah Abdul Waahid
05-06-2007, 11:06 AM
As salaamu alaikum. Its simple. People should marry those that have similar ideals. A man shouldn't marry a career woman if he doesn't like or agree with that. More importantly, Allaah says in the Qur'an that men are maintainers and protectors of women. Really, that's the bottom line. If we choose alternate lifestyles then we get what we get (just look at our children).

*Beautiful Patience*
05-10-2007, 11:57 PM
i think brothers suffer just as much, if not moreso, from the work enviornment, it takes a huge toll on one's imaan.....what's the solution, the husband and wife should start a business together!
Good solution, i never even thought of it!

ammatu'rahman
05-13-2007, 11:58 AM
[QUOTE] 'bearded brothers ain't got no game!'[QUOTE]

LOL THAT IS SOO TURE http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

ps... before you through anything at me let me say this I HAVE NO PROBELM WITH BEARDE BROTHERS except that they ain't got game!

*Beautiful Patience*
05-16-2007, 05:04 PM
[QUOTE] 'bearded brothers ain't got no game!'[QUOTE]

LOL THAT IS SOO TURE http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

ps... before you through anything at me let me say this I HAVE NO PROBELM WITH BEARDE BROTHERS except that they ain't got game!
Im sorry but i have NO IDEA what your talking about? What "game" should they even have!
They are trying to emulate the prophet (s.a.w.) the most perfect man that ever existed! I give my respect to any guy who takes the "norms" of this western society and throws them out the window!
So i really dont understand what you mean by your statement. But it does not seem postive.
We should congratulate the belivers and thoes who choose to set themselves apart from the kufar in an outward appeance. Good Job guys! http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

Umm Umaarah
05-16-2007, 07:18 PM
[QUOTE] 'bearded brothers ain't got no game!'[QUOTE]

LOL THAT IS SOO TURE http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

ps... before you through anything at me let me say this I HAVE NO PROBELM WITH BEARDE BROTHERS except that they ain't got game!
as salaamu 'alaykum

what do you mean by no game?

Ammar AlShukry
05-16-2007, 07:35 PM
as salaamu 'alaykum

what do you mean by no game?Allahu alam but I think by no game, they say that most brothers with beards generally don't care to adorn themselves with the other things that intrigue the opposite gender, such as being well groomed, having a good job, dressing sharp, driving something nicer than an '88 toyota corrolla that he got from his dad.

-That would be my take, and not having to do with them having a beard.

Ifteen
05-17-2007, 12:34 AM
I think that a brother that carries himself with the proper akhlaq and adab is quite refreashing.

the problem is that we are so bombarded with all the fitnah out there that we became used to it on some level. so when we see someone who is rejecting the "norm" we get thrown off by it.

I say kudos http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon14.gif to the brothers who are standing up and standing out!!!!

FYI brothers your not supposed to have GAME http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon8.gif

Treat your wife like the Queen she is Inshallah thats "Game" enough.