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Sirius1
02-27-2007, 10:12 PM
Salaam Alaykum!

Basically, this question is testing the outlook of men toward women who directly propose men, for marriage. Iíve been curious about this question since a very long time. Iíve heard a few responses from men, but do not know which one is the most prevalent.

InshaAllah, our Muslim brothers on this forum can generously share their views on this topic.

Married brothers can also vote on this thread, as the question is only testing a view/attitude.

PS: Also, as I understand it, this question is not a halaal/haraam issue. So, let there be no discussion on that, please. :) Itís testing personal preference. So, please vote!

Note to Sisters: Feel free to participate in the discussion, but the poll is only for the brothers. :)

Jazakallah Khair!

Sirius1
02-28-2007, 08:27 AM
55 views - 5 views = 50 views.

Minus 5 b/c that the number of times I checked this thread. So, from the remaining 50, my estimate is, atleast 19 were brothers, (who have checked this atleast once). Two of whom have already voted (jazakallah)...so around 17 votes are missing!

In case people are wondering...Voter identity will not be revealed. Even I wouldn't know that you voted. So please vote, unhesitatingly.

We will be waiting. :)

Siraaj
02-28-2007, 02:11 PM
I had spoken to Shaykh Muhammad about this at class, and a few of the brothers mentioned that they wouldn't mind (that's how it worked out with me, anyway).

Siraaj

brother_bruce
02-28-2007, 04:03 PM
I honestly think its immature to judge a sister positively or negatively if she initiates talks. Yes, there might be the idea that the way she approached a brother was immoral/ unseeming for a Muslimah, and that it might cause her to appear too 'loose'. But the brother should be able to figure out that its not really a joking matter anyway.

Best thing to do in that case is to go through an intermediary. I dont think anyone should have a problem with that.

brother_bruce
02-28-2007, 04:17 PM
And I think anyone who's interest is sparked is just being silly.

Al Baraa
02-28-2007, 05:53 PM
I know some guys think that its a 'lack of haya' if a sister initiates the proposal, but they are forgetting that certian aspect that they think is 'modesty' or 'shyness' is actually from thier culture.

One thing i've noticed...sisters who are either converts or dont have much association with desi or arab culture arn't afraid to initiate the proposal. Such sisters ive noticed are quick to get married too, while the culturally minded desi and arab sisters are still 'waiting' :P

I think this also has to do with the American mentaltiy of carpe diem...which I think is a very good thing. :D

Bint Ahmad
02-28-2007, 06:54 PM
I know some guys think that its a 'lack of haya' if a sister initiates the proposal, but they are forgetting that certian aspect that they think is 'modesty' or 'shyness' is actually from thier culture. I know I'm not a brother (so much for the disclaimer in the title of the thread), but this thread "sparked my interest". It is definitely true that a negative view on sisters proposing or being pro-active in searching for a husband is heavily influenced by eastern culture. However, what about taking our beloved Khadija (radiya Allahu 3anha), and her being the prophet Muhammad (SAAWS)'s first wife, as an example that a sister's proposal should not be considered 'a lack of haya'. Not only that, but subhan'Allah, she picked the best of humanity as well. Though I still don't see it becoming a common phenomenon anytime soon from the Desi and Arab sisters.

As a sister, I too would be interested in finding out how brothers would weigh a proposal from a sister, whether it be from her directly or her mahrams. Honest opinions guys, not just politically correct talk.

P.S. I did not vote on the polls.

hassanm
02-28-2007, 07:13 PM
I know I'm not a brother, but this thread "sparked my interest". It is definitely true that a negative view on a sister proposing or being pro-active in searching for a husband is heavily influenced by eastern culture. However, what about taking our beloved Khadija (radiya Allahu 3anha), and her being the prophet Muhammad (SAAWS)'s first wife, as an example that a sister's proposal should not be considered 'a lack of haya'. Not only that, but subhan'Allah, she also picked the best of humanity as well. I still don't see it becoming a common phenomenon anytime soon though from the Desi and Arab sisters.

As a sister, I too would be interested in finding out how brothers would weigh a proposal from a sister, whether it be from her directly or her mahrams. Honest opinions guys, not just politically correct talk.

Hmm, what I understood from the question "What would you do if a Muslim woman were to directly propose you for marriage?" was that sister is directly on face proposing to brother? If that is what meant by this question, then example of Khadijah is not valid since she talked to her friend showing interest in prophet PBUH, and her friend asked prophet Muhammad PBUH that what would he think about marriage, and he hesitated citing financial concerns? (thats what I remember from CD set mother of believers), then the friend said, money is no concern, and so on with rest of story.

We need to ask scholar or student of knowledge (or someone taken FOL class) if its appropriate for a man or woman to directly propose in a culture where it is considered lack of haya versus in a culture where it is normal. Or is this something that people need to defy culture and do strictly one thing or another.

omer_k88
02-28-2007, 07:14 PM
And I think anyone who's interest is sparked is just being silly.Why do you think that's being silly? The brother was right it is mainly cultural and it has to do with the actual community and their norms. I'm pretty sure even the people who said they would decline would consider it at least a little.

Bint Ahmad
02-28-2007, 07:44 PM
Hmm, what I understood from the question "What would you do if a Muslim woman were to directly propose you for marriage?" was that sister is directly on face proposing to brother? If that is what meant by this question, then example of Khadijah is not valid since she talked to her friend showing interest in prophet PBUH, and her friend asked prophet Muhammad PBUH that what would he think about marriage, and he hesitated citing financial concerns? (thats what I remember from CD set mother of believers), then the friend said, money is no concern, and so on with rest of story.

We need to ask scholar or student of knowledge (or someone taken FOL class) if its appropriate for a man or woman to directly propose in a culture where it is considered lack of haya versus in a culture where it is normal. Or is this something that people need to defy culture and do strictly one thing or another.Good point. I have to admit that I wasn't aware of the details of Khadija's proposal and assumed that it was face to face. So thank you for clarifying. I also hadn't realized that this thread's question might be more specific.

However, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that there is a cultural stigma surrounding even a proposal to a man through a mahram or wali. So, personally, I was interested in brothers' opinions on that as well. But, if Brother Sirius wants to keep this thread exclusively for the question: "about the outlook of men toward women who directly propose men, for marriage, i.e. face to face," then I can start a different thread regarding my inquiry.

brother_bruce
02-28-2007, 08:38 PM
Why do you think that's being silly? The brother was right it is mainly cultural and it has to do with the actual community and their norms. I'm pretty sure even the people who said they would decline would consider it at least a little.
I'm sorry, I should have clarified what I meant. The actual act of having a sister come up to you to propose should have no weight on how you regard the sister as a potential spouse. It should not have a positive impact, nor should it cast a negative shadow in one's mind.

I think that people who feel extra interest because a sister approaches them are being silly.

With respect to barriers on women approaching men, I think its more of a modern phenomenon than just plain 'Eastern'.

For example, in FoL, we hear Sh Yaser Birjas talking about a famous scholar who asked one of his students to marry his daughter.

Again, there's that example of a woman/ niqaabi who, I think, walked up to one of the four imaams / uncovered her face, and asked him if he would marry a woman who looked like her, and then walked away. (I think it was Imam Shafi'i)

Then you have the example of 'Umar ibn alKhattab, where he actively went searching for men to marry his daughter Hafsa - he went to Uthman (RA), then Abu Bakr (RA), before the Prophet (PBUH) finally proposed. This one, anyway, is in a hadith.

In short, everyone - brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers - should be concerned in getting the most pious/ compatible spouse possible. Parents should be concerned about getting the best person for their son / daughter. All the posturing and politics and concern about superficial honor isnt really going to help you in the long run.

hassanm
02-28-2007, 09:33 PM
As salaam alaikum,

From the Love Notes class, we learned from Sheikh Yaser Birjas that a man directly proposing to a woman is halal and so is a women directly proposing to a man. Similarly, it is fine to go through a middleman.

Of course, it depends on one's culture and environment, but it doesn't mean it's haraam.

Wa Allahu ta'ala alam.

Right, it clarifies that man proposing woman and woman proposing man without middleman is mubah (permissible). But when you said of course it depends on one's culture and environment, does it mean that if this man proposing woman and woman proposing man is considered something not appropriate in a certain culture, then it should not be done? Did Sh Yasir Birjas said anything in this regard? (just from learning perspective, nothing to do with voting here)

Sirius1
02-28-2007, 10:12 PM
Sweet...A discussion. Glad it 'sparked an interest'...lol.

Anyways, Jazakallah to all the brothers who have voted and commented. We (I'm sure I'm not alone) truly appreciate it. Please continue to do so (especially. if you haven't already).

Sirius1
02-28-2007, 10:14 PM
Is everyone familiar with this hadith?



Volume 7, Book 62, Number 24: Narrated Sahl bin Sad As-Sa'idi: A woman came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have come to give you myself in marriage (without Mahr)." Allah's Apostle looked at her. He looked at her carefully and fixed his glance on her and then lowered his head. When the lady saw that he did not say anything, she sat down. A man from his companions got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! If you are not in need of her, then marry her to me." The Prophet said, "Have you got anything to offer?" The man said, "No, by Allah, O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet said (to him), "Go to your family and see if you have something." The man went and returned, saying, "No, by Allah, I have not found anything." Allah's Apostle said, "(Go again) and look for something, even if it is an iron ring." He went again and returned, saying, "No, by Allah, O Allah's Apostle! I could not find even an iron ring, but this is my Izar (waist sheet)." He had no rida. He added, "I give half of it to her." Allah's Apostle said, "What will she do with your Izar? If you wear it, she will be naked, and if she wears it, you will be naked." So that man sat down for a long while and then got up (to depart). When Allah's Apostle saw him going, he ordered that he be called back. When he came, the Prophet said, "How much of the Quran do you know?" He said, "I know such Sura and such Sura," counting them. The Prophet said, "Do you know them by heart?" He replied, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I marry her to you for that much of the Quran which you have." The Prophet (sa) didn't seem to condemn the woman for initiating the proposal. Doesn't seem like a problem. Wallahu Alim. Perhaps, a more knowledgeable person can confirm.

Sirius1
02-28-2007, 10:45 PM
But, if Brother Sirius... Sister Sirius :)...wants to keep this thread exclusively for the question: "about the outlook of men toward women who directly propose men, for marriage, i.e. face to face," then I can start a different thread regarding my inquiry.Actually, I think your inquiry is relevant.

-----------------------

Btw...I should have mentioned this before...but I guess its not too late...sisters can freely pariticipate in the discussion, but they shouldn't vote. :) I think the thread's purpose is more clear now.

Hasan
03-01-2007, 01:08 AM
Again, there's that example of a woman/ niqaabi who, I think, walked up to one of the four imaams / uncovered her face, and asked him if he would marry a woman who looked like her, and then walked away. (I think it was Imam Shafi'i) If this is the story from Fiqh of Love, then it occured much different the way I remember it. And Shaykh Yaser mentioned during the seminar that what she did was inappropriate. Wa Allahu a'lam. Your other evidences are golden, though. Jazaakum Allahu khaira.

My take on the whole thing: A dude who's lowering his gaze isn't going to know sisters even exist. The rule for sisters lowering their gaze is a little less strict, so naturally they'll likely spot someone they like. So you'd expect a lot of khadijah-style matches (i.e. with a middle-person/wali suggesting marriage to the guy) happening, wa Allahu a'lam. The fact that there is a stigma associated with this is unfortunate, in my opinion.

Personally, if a sister who could have used a middle-person to suggest marriage to a brother instead decided to go face-to-face, I'd kinda be turned off because I value shyness in a person.

However, if she had no other option but to go face-to-face, it would be understandable. That's the image I get of the woman that proposed to the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam). The fact that the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam) married her to a poor man gives me the feeling that she was in a desperate situation. Wa Allahu a'lam. There could be a number of situations where face-to-face is the only option, such as lack of a solid Muslim community, lack of trustworthy middle-people, etc.

Conclusion: While acknowlegding that it's not haram for a sister to propose to a brother, I value shyness. Therefore, I vote for the 3rd option. I would decline or consider depending on the sister that is proposing (i.e. depending on her situation).

WA ALLAHU A'LAM.

hassanm
03-01-2007, 06:40 AM
If this is the story from Fiqh of Love, then it occured much different the way I remember it. And Shaykh Yaser mentioned during the seminar that what she did was inappropriate. Wa Allahu a'lam. Your other evidences are golden, though. Jazaakum Allahu khaira.

My take on the whole thing: A dude who's lowering his gaze isn't going to know sisters even exist. The rule for sisters lowering their gaze is a little less strict, so naturally they'll likely spot someone they like. So you'd expect a lot of khadijah-style matches (i.e. with a middle-person/wali suggesting marriage to the guy) happening, wa Allahu a'lam. The fact that there is a stigma associated with this is unfortunate, in my opinion.

Personally, if a sister who could have used a middle-person to suggest marriage to a brother instead decided to go face-to-face, I'd kinda be turned off because I value shyness in a person.

However, if she had no other option but to go face-to-face, it would be understandable. That's the image I get of the woman that proposed to the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam). The fact that the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam) married her to a poor man gives me the feeling that she was in a desperate situation. Wa Allahu a'lam. There could be a number of situations where face-to-face is the only option, such as lack of a solid Muslim community, lack of trustworthy middle-people, etc.

Conclusion: While acknowlegding that it's not haram for a sister to propose to a brother, I value shyness. Therefore, I vote for the 3rd option. I would decline or consider depending on the sister that is proposing (i.e. depending on her situation).

WA ALLAHU A'LAM.

The hadith sister Sirius1 mentioned is more relevant than act of Khadijah, as act of Khadijah was way before Islam and Sharia. And since prophet PBUH did not condemn her (the lady that came to prophet PBUH) actions, that means its permissible (unless if later in his PBUH life he said something to change ruling). But again we need to know if it is acceptable regardless of culture.

So as you brother Hasan (not me, Hasan Shah I assume) mentioned that your answer would depend on situation. And I think then location and cultural difference also comes in play, as sister approaching/proposing in west may not suggest anything negative about this sister, may be she is more practicing then anyone else, but lets say in Pakistan, a sister proposes to man, then it raises serious concerns.....

Umm Salma
03-01-2007, 10:30 AM
I know I'm a sister too, but I just thought I'd mention something. Don't worry, I didn't vote.

Personally, I don't see the problem with a woman proposing marriage to a man. That guy should be flattered. That means someone is checking him out (in a halal way, inshaAllah), and finds him suitable for marriage. Some guys I see in my community find it so hard to find a good woman because they get turned down, so it discourages them even more sometimes. Accept or not, they should still be pretty pleased. I mean why not? Well, don't get cocky or anything, but it's got to be nice. And you gotta give props to the woman. She must have had to gather a lot of courage in order to do that, if it was face to face. So don't be offended, brothers. It's a good sign, inshaAllah.

I apologize if I offended anyone. I just thought it would make you feel better about the situation.

Sirius1
03-01-2007, 11:16 AM
My take on the whole thing: A dude who's lowering his gaze isn't going to know sisters even exist. I think (even for brothers), theoretically it is easy to predict the outcome of lowering the gaze. But in real life, when things are meant to be and not everything is under our control (qadr)...we can only do so much about it. Example: Prophet's (sa) marriage with Zaynab bint Jahsh. His gaze paused at Zaynab (ra) and then he quickly turned away. Ofcourse, the Prophet (sa) wouldn't intentionally look at women in a wrong way. He (sa) was the best among men about lowering his gaze.

Also, the Prophet (sa) knew the female members of the community, so wouldn't that require a certain level of glancing--for the sake of identification?

Hasan
03-01-2007, 11:47 AM
I think (even for brothers), theoretically it is easy to predict the outcome of lowering the gaze. But in real life, when things are meant to be and not everything is under our control (qadr)...we can only do so much about itNo doubt. I'm just saying I think it might be more likely that a sister will see someone she's interested in rather than a brother seeing someone he's interested in, due to lowering the gaze. Wa Allahu a'lam.

Also, just to clarify, I don't see anything wrong with a sister suggesting marriage thru a middle-person. And as for the woman who proposed to the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam) directly, I remember learning that a scholar actually praised her actions.

I'm just saying that if she had the means of going thru a middle person but didn't even try, it might reflect something regarding her shyness (I may be wrong). I personally would like someone who is shy. Other guys may not mind. Wa Allahu a'lam.

craving-jannah
03-01-2007, 09:29 PM
Interesting stuff.
I would agree with sr nitelife. It takes a lot for a sister to approach a brother regarding marriage, even thru' a middleman (='ghottok' in my language) more so face-2-face.
As a brother, i feel this is the most anxious part of considering proposing to a sister, to find out if the sister would feel the same way (fear of rejection); would consider marrying the bro after receiving the proposal. So, if someone proposes to a brother, you know for sure that she likes you.....makes it a lot easier!
The quality of the prospectives should matter more than the method of proposal (given that the method is halal).

craving-jannah
03-01-2007, 09:40 PM
Regarding cultural influence on the method of proposal, it is a very prevalant practice in the desi culture that brother's side make the first move. Even if the woman's mahrams see/find a good brother, they would send messages (direct or indirect) to the mahram of the brother to make the first move.
I know of instances when the wali of a sister talked to a brother and told him that he, the wali, would like the brother to 'officially' propose for his daughter. And the wali mentioned 'as we do it in our culture' (paraphrased).

-3rif

Ibn Khaleefah
03-01-2007, 11:42 PM
My take on the whole thing: A dude who's lowering his gaze isn't going to know sisters even exist. The rule for sisters lowering their gaze is a little less strict, so naturally they'll likely spot someone they like. So you'd expect a lot of khadijah-style matches (i.e. with a middle-person/wali suggesting marriage to the guy) happening, wa Allahu a'lam. The fact that there is a stigma associated with this is unfortunate, in my opinion.


Dude, you practically read my mind. :)

AbdelRahmanMurphy
03-02-2007, 11:46 AM
A sister did propose to me directly, once, so I'm speaking from experience. Had I not already been spoken for, alhamdulilah, I would've considered it because...

a.She had alot of haya (I could tell through her e-mail)
b.She was deen oriented, so I knew that she didn't have a secret agenda.

In all actuality, it has alot to do with how the girl approaches the guy. She can't go bumbling up to him giggling. If she's serious and sincere with modesty, it's a definite consideration - at least for me (and a few of my friends who agree).

mahin
03-02-2007, 01:26 PM
Arif hit it on the money....(no I'm not using a 3 cuz a 3 is not an Ayn). It takes alot of guts for the sister to propose, so that itself is commendable..and should shed some light on her qualities.

If the brother is not interested in anyone else, and a sister proposes then I would say there's a good chance the brother would consider it.

However, in many cases...there are two issues in play.

1) The brother is interested in someone else and is figuring out his gameplan...so the sister proposing to that brother would only work if the sister proposing and the sister the brother is thinking about is the same person...I would imagine that scenario to be quite rare.

2) The sister is from a diff. culture than the brother and it just isn't going to fly(parents, brother himself not wanting to marry someone from certain regions, etc)

In this day and age, with deenin' sisters outnumbering deenin' brothers by a wide majority...sisters have to propose if they find someone they're interested in...cuz waiting around for that individual to propose is a crapshoot shot in the dark. I mean as a brother, you find someone you're interested in..and you go take care of business...you don't wait around hoping for her to propose. While it is more likely to get a proposal from brothers, it is very unlikely that a specific brother will propose..so they have to initiate it. also as Arif mentioned, it makes our job a lot easier since we don't have to deal with possibility of rejection as the male ego is quite fragile.

and Allaah knows best.

omer_k88
03-03-2007, 11:51 AM
I know I'm a sister too, but I just thought I'd mention something. Don't worry, I didn't vote.

Personally, I don't see the problem with a woman proposing marriage to a man. That guy should be flattered. That means someone is checking him out (in a halal way, inshaAllah), and finds him suitable for marriage. Some guys I see in my community find it so hard to find a good woman because they get turned down, so it discourages them even more sometimes. Accept or not, they should still be pretty pleased. I mean why not? Well, don't get cocky or anything, but it's got to be nice. And you gotta give props to the woman. She must have had to gather a lot of courage in order to do that, if it was face to face. So don't be offended, brothers. It's a good sign, inshaAllah.

I apologize if I offended anyone. I just thought it would make you feel better about the situation. AGREED!

That's exactly what I was thinking when I said it 'sparked my interest'. We all value shyness but it's pretty unusual for a sister to do that and if she does do it--it shows a lot of personal strength and courage, something which I think is of great value in anyone, not just a potential spouse.
It's one of those things that guys go for--inner strength in a woman.
It also shows that their unique and not afraid to change the status quo (something which we need to do amongst us Muslims!) and be a mover and shaker of the Ummah.

If their courageous and headstrong, chances are their going to stand up for the truth and what they know is right--even against their husband's wishes and not shy away...

If their headstrong and religious --> Alhamdulillah!

If their headstrong and irreligious --> Could be trouble...

My verdict:

If more sisters started proposing to guys, directly or indirectly, it would probably make things MUCH easier and solve a lot of marital issues!

Sirius1
03-03-2007, 11:02 PM
Interesting insights. Jazakallah for sharing brothers! Sparkling gems, indeed (for people interested).

Also, its interesting how two people may be thinking about the same concept (religiousity) yet focusing on different aspects that entail it, and so vote for two different options. Interesting.

I guess, each of us value some virtues more than others. Perhaps those virtues are something we possess (or perhaps something we hope to attain). If we identify those virtues in the other person, we get attracted to him/her. In psychology, they say similarity breeds attraction. Wallahu Alim.

----------------------

2 brothers have selected the "other, posted below" option...

Brothers, you gotta tell us what you would do. Its required. :)

islamictruth1985
03-04-2007, 07:11 PM
Asalamu alikoum, all are good insights mash'allah.

It is very typical for men to propose to women and that the other way around. and somtimes if a women does propose, it is like a RED LIGHT!!! lol

however, we have to take into account who is proposing.
that is just my opinion. wa allahu a'llam
khair inshallah
Jazkaoum allah khair.

Mubarak
03-06-2007, 04:11 AM
Assalam alaikum



Its surprising how my first thread happens to be marriage related and believe it or not, I accidentally fell into this section but I donít expect any of you to believe me



But on a serious note, it seems to me that living in the present day, our sisters are the strong hold of our communities and us brothers have taken a back seat (not in regard to the shura aspect but instead) to the different actions that are necessary to improve the state of our Ummah. I even heard someone suggesting that the MSA should be renamed to the Muslim Sisters Association (but thatís a little extreme, wouldnít you say)



Personally, this whole concept of sisters proposing to brothers in not new but rather it has been happening for some time and thatís understandable because the number of sisters out there are double (if not more) than that of the brothers. Not to mention, there are more practicing sisters than brothers so it only makes sense. How do I feel about it? Well since there are many opinions out there, I chose to hold back on mine but the real question should be; what is the wisdom behind a sister proposing to a brother?



And Allah knows best

Sirius1
03-06-2007, 01:30 PM
Assalam alaikum
Well since there are many opinions out there, I chose to hold back on mine but the real question should be; what is the wisdom behind a sister proposing to a brother?
Walaikum As-salaam,

Perhaps, brother, you could shed some light on that.

Mubarak
03-06-2007, 03:07 PM
Assalam



Sirius my sister, I can barely speak on behalf of the brothers let alone shed some light on the wisdom behind a sisterís mentality http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon9.gif.

I was actually kinda hoping you would be brave enough to step up to the plate and swing for the fences by sharing your opinions on this topic. Matter fact, let me ask you this, how do you (or the sisters) feel about proposing to the brothers of the present day? (and I know the politically correct answer so donít think you can get away with it http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon7.gif )


And Allah knows best

Musafir
03-06-2007, 04:35 PM
Assalam alaikum



what is the wisdom behind a sister proposing to a brother?



I'm a bit confused by the question. The obvious answer is: the wisdom behind a sister proposing to a brother is she wants to show interest in a brother and wants to see if things could work out between the two.
I really don't see any other hidden or obvious "wisdom" (irrespective of if a brother or a sister is proposing).

Mubarak
03-06-2007, 05:47 PM
Assalam

Ya Musafir, itís true that the obvious answer would be that the sister is interested in the brother and is trying to get to know him (with the intention of marriage) but what would cause her to approach him to begin with. Thatís what I was trying to determine because there are several reasons why a sister may decide to take matters into her own hands. For one, there may not be another means (ie, her mahram isnít around or she doesnít have a male mahram in the country so on and so forth) or maybe sheís one of those ďgotta get himĒ sisters and is very persistent in life. I know its never good to generalize but we are on a forum and we take what we can get (of opinions) and make our own conclusions.
So the question still standsÖ



And Allah knows best

Sirius1
03-06-2007, 09:20 PM
I was actually kinda hoping you would be brave enough to step up to the plate and swing for the fences by sharing your opinions on this topic. Matter fact, let me ask you this, how do you (or the sisters) feel about proposing to the brothers of the present day? (and I know the politically correct answer so donít think you can get away with it http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon7.gif )


And Allah knows best

Brother, we would be going off tangent if I start sharing my opinions on this topic. Let's keep this thread for the brothers' opinions. They rarely get to speak on this topic. :)

Perhaps, a new thread is required for your question. I don't mind giving my hypothetical reasons of how a sister might feel about proposing to a present day brother (or what would cause her to do so) on that new thread. Also, there might be other sisters out there who might be more experienced than me...who could shed some light on that. A new thread will, inshaAllah catch their attention.

I predict the thread would be an educating one. :)

Jazakallah Khair

Sirius1
03-06-2007, 09:25 PM
I'm a bit confused by the question. The obvious answer is: the wisdom behind a sister proposing to a brother is she wants to show interest in a brother and wants to see if things could work out between the two.
I really don't see any other hidden or obvious "wisdom" (irrespective of if a brother or a sister is proposing).From what the brother explained, I suppose he means...what would cause a woman to directly approach a man...(considering Muslim woman at large commonly don't do that). He is asking for possible reasons for why a woman (who is different than the majority) might do that.

asyed
03-07-2007, 09:32 PM
Now here is mine:

If a sister proposes directly (without going through wali as Khadija ra did), then it would be a negative point... however the sister would certainly get me thinking and smiling.

Who wouldn't desire to be directly proposed to... but then I don't know if I would have a good impression of the sister who directly proposed..

Another thing is that I would consider, is the situation of the sister... maybe she is a revert, in which case there is no real wali, so I would not consider the proposal a negative point...

Another reason could be that the sister is practicing and the wali(s) of that sister are not at all practicing and she knows (100%) that they are not going to pick a good (meaning religious) husband for her to choose from.
BOTTOM LINE: Sisters making direct proposals is rare in our Islamic heritage, so let's keep it rare insha Allah. However, let's make room for those exceptions insha Allah.

mahin
03-08-2007, 06:58 AM
(off the topic) I see Abdullah..that you've switched your Qabeelat allegiance from Hosna to Tayybah.

Sirius1
03-08-2007, 10:58 AM
Now here is mine:

If a sister proposes directly (without going through wali as Khadija ra did), then it would be a negative point...Brother, why do you consider it a negative point? Will you please provide some reasons?

Jazakallah Khair

Hasan
03-10-2007, 10:59 AM
As-salaamu 'alaikum,

It was mentioned earlier that if a sister is interested in a brother, then it would be senseless for the brother to show extra interest when considering the sister. What if the brother has a beard a mile long? I think it says a lot about the sister's religious views.

Just something I thought I'd point out. Wa Allahu a'lam.

omer_k88
03-10-2007, 03:35 PM
As salam aleikum!

Sister Sirius, just out of curiousity why was this thread even created? Like was this something you were just thinking about or discussing with your parents or do you know a sister who has proposed directly or are you planning on proposing yourself to a brother directly?

Please do share!

ZkrofAllah
03-10-2007, 05:26 PM
As salam aleikum!

Sister Sirius, just out of curiousity why was this thread even created? Like was this something you were just thinking about or discussing with your parents or do you know a sister who has proposed directly or are you planning on proposing yourself to a brother directly?

Please do share!
She probably did it out of curiosity akhi. Most of these threads are out of curiosity then anything else. :)

allahu'alam

spana3rabia
03-10-2007, 05:31 PM
^I agree.

Besides, its not for us to dig into aspects of member's personal life.

:)

brother_bruce
03-10-2007, 10:17 PM
As-salaamu 'alaikum,

It was mentioned earlier that if a sister is interested in a brother, then it would be senseless for the brother to show extra interest when considering the sister. What if the brother has a beard a mile long? I think it says a lot about the sister's religious views.

Just something I thought I'd point out. Wa Allahu a'lam.Wa'alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullah

If my comments are being referred to, then inshaAllah I dont think its senseless per se ('silly' was the word, actually :) ), I just think that many brothers would treat her approach as the determining factor. However, it is quite possible that I misunderstood the statement to begin with, and that my understanding may be biased due to some situations that one of my friends was put through about a year ago.

In the example mentioned here, it's the sister's religious views that would make her so attractive. But these religious views are already held by the sister, regardless of whether she approaches the brother or not. This factor is definitely something to give alot of weight to, but its sad that the actual factor that tips the scales in many situations is not the deen / imaan of a person, but superficial acts and appearances, such as The Approach. I do not think that this is important enough to be given either a positive or negative weight.

Of course, there's the dilemma presented by a few already that those brothers who actually observe 'proper' adab may not be aware of all the deeni sisters around them. In which case, the sister's approach might shed light on her other more important, and long lasting characteristics. If the brother is then led to these other characteristics, and makes a decision based on them, then that it totally fine.

Again, I was treating the statement "I would promptly consider her proposal, as women who propose men spark my interest" as a self contained, complete thought that assumed all other factors to be equal. It should be weightless in the long run.

Wassalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

Sirius1
03-11-2007, 01:41 PM
As salam aleikum!

Sister Sirius, just out of curiousity why was this thread even created? Like was this something you were just thinking about or discussing with your parents or do you know a sister who has proposed directly or are you planning on proposing yourself to a brother directly?

Please do share!

Walaikum as-salaam!

Curiosity for the most part ... I mentioned it in my original post. : )

PureMuslimah
03-16-2007, 09:50 PM
interesting discussion indeed

Sirius1
03-21-2007, 11:15 PM
Interesting trend.

I'm still waiting for the brothers who selected the "other" option to explain their choice.

Ra77aal
03-26-2007, 05:37 PM
what an interesting discussion!

As a sister, i can understand why some ladies may feel the need to initiate a proposal to a brother... some families are very laissez faire, and if the sister has found someone she would like to know better, in an islamic manner...then khair...right?

But i'm of the opinion that as women, we should be pursued, and i believe that there's a quote of Aesha (ra) to this effect... It's the most beautiful thing to have someone persistently ask for your hand...get harassed by your dad, go through all sorts of hoops...all to declare his unwavering love for you!

Sirius1
03-27-2007, 10:53 PM
what an interesting discussion!

As a sister, i can understand why some ladies may feel the need to initiate a proposal to a brother... some families are very laissez faire, and if the sister has found someone she would like to know better, in an islamic manner...then khair...right?

But i'm of the opinion that as women, we should be pursued, and i believe that there's a quote of Aesha (ra) to this effect... It's the most beautiful thing to have someone persistently ask for your hand...get harassed by your dad, go through all sorts of hoops...all to declare his unwavering love for you!
Sister...check this thread...
http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=20021

freedbyislam
03-28-2007, 12:21 PM
As salamu alaykum. I voted for option 3, and then I read all the posts. Hasan's and AbdelRahman's views are, I think, closest to mine.

I think the quality of a sister's character does show in her behavior. And I do not know if the sisters know how important is the example they set at AlMaghrib classes, and on these forums, too.

I was raised in America on an overdose diet of television and movies. That and public school dramatically affected my views on women. Growing up in a desi family, I also watched Indian movies, which did not improve matters. Sunday school, relatives back home, mixed-Muslim functions here, not even 4 umrahs did more than offer counterpoints to the examples I had been raised to praise.

And then came Hajj. And I prayed that Allah subhanahu wata ala would make me want that which pleases Him. I came to AlMaghrib looking for people like my fellow Hujjaj -- many of whom were AlMaghrib students.

Some months ago the imam at my local masjid arranged for me to meet a sister whom he knew was looking for a husband. It did not work out because her family wants her to marry an Egyptian, but what's really funny was his reaction to my reaction to her. I told him she was really nice, and he thought that meant I was not interested.

But her akhlaque was so good, that I had no other words to describe her. My upbringing had not supplied me with the right vocabulary, or maybe my brain could not use words to describe her that I would have in the past used for a completely different type of woman.

Some might say that people are looking for behavior in a woman that matches the culture of their home country. I disagree. Good character is good character -- Islam is a guidance and a mercy for all peoples.

Allahum-maghfirlee maa qaddamtu, wa maa 'akhkhartu, wa ma 'asrartu, wa maa 'a'lantu, wa maa 'asraftu, wa maa 'Anta 'a'lamu bihi minnee. 'Antal-Muqaddimu, wa 'Antal-Mu'akhkhiru laa 'ilaha 'illaa 'Anta.

Sabiqoon
04-05-2007, 12:01 AM
I know I'm not a brother (so much for the disclaimer in the title of the thread), but this thread "sparked my interest". It is definitely true that a negative view on sisters proposing or being pro-active in searching for a husband is heavily influenced by eastern culture. However, what about taking our beloved Khadija (radiya Allahu 3anha), and her being the prophet Muhammad (SAAWS)'s first wife, as an example that a sister's proposal should not be considered 'a lack of haya'. Not only that, but subhan'Allah, she picked the best of humanity as well. Though I still don't see it becoming a common phenomenon anytime soon from the Desi and Arab sisters.

As a sister, I too would be interested in finding out how brothers would weigh a proposal from a sister, whether it be from her directly or her mahrams. Honest opinions guys, not just politically correct talk.

P.S. I did not vote on the polls.



You know I did know someone who proposed but with hayaa' adn I can tell you that everyone uses Khadeejah RA example but her example should not be used as a basis for young virgin(never married) girls.

her example is for the 40 something widowed or divorced experienced about life women. At that age they are confident and in mid life enough to initiate a proposal to a guy either indirectly through an intermediary or directly.


I just wanted to point that out because I keep reading Khadijah RA example and this example so does not apply to girls that are never married and that to because thye have mahrams. Someone mentioned about even converts getting marriage proposals through imaam or imaam's wife and that is a very very smart way.

That aside it is really hard nowadays to find proposals in general. I know cause I am acting as a matchmaker for two or three friends of mine and it is difficult.

So I think in general interest can be expressed to a third party/intermediary. Then if they are nice enough, they can start praising you in front of the guy. You know like flattering praise and then if perchance the guy asks, "uhh, who is she?"

use that as a spring board to provide the biodata and convince him to propose to you, etc.


(I am partially joking, May Allaah bless you guys with the best for you, ameen).

Sabiqoon
04-05-2007, 12:14 AM
1) The brother is interested in someone else and is figuring out his gameplan...so the sister proposing to that brother would only work if the sister proposing and the sister the brother is thinking about is the same person...I would imagine that scenario to be quite rare.

2) The sister is from a diff. culture than the brother and it just isn't going to fly(parents, brother himself not wanting to marry someone from certain regions, etc)

In this day and age, with deenin' sisters outnumbering deenin' brothers by a wide majority...sisters have to propose if they find someone they're interested in...cuz waiting around for that individual to propose is a crapshoot shot in the dark. I mean as a brother, you find someone you're interested in..and you go take care of business...you don't wait around hoping for her to propose. While it is more likely to get a proposal from brothers, it is very unlikely that a specific brother will propose..so they have to initiate it. also as Arif mentioned, it makes our job a lot easier since we don't have to deal with possibility of rejection as the male ego is quite fragile.

and Allaah knows best.




BINGO! to your first point and second point.

Rejection is taken harder by sisters than brothers because sisters tend to be emotional. The female ego is more fragile and brothers are more resilient. I say brothers should generally propose but middleman sparking an interest about a particular sister might help.

Sirius1
04-05-2007, 10:42 AM
You know I did know someone who proposed but with hayaa' adn I can tell you that everyone uses Khadeejah RA example but her example should not be used as a basis for young virgin(never married) girls.

her example is for the 40 something widowed or divorced experienced about life women. At that age they are confident and in mid life enough to initiate a proposal to a guy either indirectly through an intermediary or directly.Sister Sabiqoon:


PS: Also, as I understand it, this question is not a halaal/haraam issue. So, let there be no discussion on that, please. :) Itís testing personal preference.

Jazakallah Khair!Also, I hope you have read the hadith that have been mentioned in the previous posts. Wouldn't the Prophet (sa) condoned the woman who proposed him (sa), if it were so bad? (rhetorical question)

This thread was meant for the brothers to share their views. If someone wants to discuss permissibility of a direct/indirect proposal (or answer the rhetorical question *above*), they can start a new thread. :)

Sabiqoon
04-05-2007, 12:48 PM
Sister Sabiqoon:

Also, I hope you have read the hadith that have been mentioned in the previous posts. Wouldn't the Prophet (sa) condoned the woman who proposed him (sa), if it were so bad? (rhetorical question)

This thread was meant for the brothers to share their views. If someone wants to discuss permissibility of a direct/indirect proposal (or answer the rhetorical question *above*), they can start a new thread. :)


Sometimes it is not about halaal or haraam and I did not say either, it is about taste, etiquette and islaamic mannerism. If you come from a muslim family and the walee is practicing for many people it is distasteful to have a young never married girl directly approach a man(repercussions of rejection, aside).

Secondly, being influenced by Western culture, we seek out examples that ascertain our independency and novelity such as young girls specifically seeking out Khadijah RA example because it is sooo coool taht a woman proposed,yeah woman rights! etc. Not understanding the total scenario at that time.

I ask you did the woman who proposed to Prophet Muhammad SAW in which he did not condone her, was she a widow or divorcee or older?

I am presuming yes if not please correct me.

I think at that time no single woman would go to propose. Maybe her father would offer her to the Prophet SAW, etc. but I have not heard of a young 20 something year old doing that.

Sirius1
04-05-2007, 03:37 PM
Secondly, being influenced by Western culture, we seek out examples that ascertain our independency and novelity such as young girls specifically seeking out Khadijah RA example because it is sooo coool taht a woman proposed,yeah woman rights! etc. Not understanding the total scenario at that time.).Hmm...Don't you think you are being presumptuous by making such remarks?

One should be less judgmental.

As women, we should care about women's rights...should we not? Ofcourse we shouldn't pick and choose our religion cuz thats bad!

The basic rule is every thing is permissible unless explicitly prohibited. I haven't come across any thing that prohibits a woman from proposing. Have you? I have also taken this class and never heard the Shaykh mention any daleel making it impermissible. As a matter of fact, he mentioned a story where the girl had directly proposed but the guy rejected.

And...I would really appreciate if you start a new thread for this if you want to talk about it. By discussing one topic per thread...we can have better quality discussions. I would also appreciate if you delete your last comment. Then I will delete this. Its kind of rude when you keep discussing this on here despite multiple requests to refrain.

Bin Wahdy
04-05-2007, 03:41 PM
I wouldn't be in the state of mind to accept or decline.

freedbyislam
04-06-2007, 04:56 PM
You know, Sister Sirius, I think you could get more out of this poll if you broke down choice 3/c into three answers where the only difference is that you append to each of them:

c.i: but I would not prefer that a sister initiate the proposal at all.

c.ii: but if the sister wants to initiate the proposal, I would prefer that she used a walee to contact me or my family.

c.iii: and it would make no difference to me whether she initiated or I initiated the proposal process.

Choice c.i is for people who are borderline total rejection (red light) but who probably picked answer c because your second option rejects the idea so completely.

Choice c.iii is for people who would have picked your first option, if the language of your first option had not been so... enthusiastic. :)

Choice c.ii is not just a middle path :) And it's not just splitting hairs. It may be that a sister feels she has no option other than to initiate a proposal directly, but for me that would be like a "yellow-caution" signal.

Because I really believe that if she knew anything about me, she would know that I would listen to the advice of the imam of my masjid. And he could act as her walee if she had none of her own. And if she knew nothing about me, why would she initiate a proposal!?

Sirius1
04-06-2007, 05:42 PM
You know, Sister Sirius, I think you could get more out of this poll if you broke down choice 3/c into three answers where the only difference is that you append to each of them:

c.i: but I would not prefer that a sister initiate the proposal at all.

c.ii: but if the sister wants to initiate the proposal, I would prefer that she used a walee to contact me or my family.

c.iii: and it would make no difference to me whether she initiated or I initiated the proposal process.

Because I would pick the second of these options. I do not want to hold it against a sister who wants to initiate a proposal, but it would be like a "yellow-caution" signal. Not a red light (rejection). But also not a green light (no effect at all).Thank you for your suggestion. I realize that it would make the 3rd option (and hence the poll) more specific (something to be kept in mind).

Unfortunately, I cannot change anything now, as polls cannot be edited.

-----

Noticing the "yellow-caution" attitude several times on this thread...I am wonderin why a brother would feel that way. I understand that the girl's shyness would be a concern for some brothers...but I am wondering if there is anything else besides that, (that could be a potential concern)?

blue_blossom
04-06-2007, 09:34 PM
salaama alaikum

this is a very interesting topic. I know alot of practicing sisters who are ready marriage have yet to get proposals from brothers at the same stage as they are in when it comes to the deen I mean. These sisters my maybe practicing reverts or pracitcing sisters whose parents aren't as practicing as they are...because of that they aren't really around people who know the type of good brothers they are looking for.

I guess I don't think it is wrong for these type of sisters to use a third party to ask if a certain good practicing brother is interested in marriage. Allah knows best...

freedbyislam
04-06-2007, 10:51 PM
Thank you for your suggestion. I realize that it would make the 3rd option (and hence the poll) more specific (something to be kept in mind). Unfortunately, I cannot change anything now, as polls cannot be edited.
No problem. I considered the fourth option, but the third option was not wrong for me -- just not as specific as I would have liked.

Noticing the "yellow-caution" attitude several times on this thread...I am wonderin why a brother would feel that way. I understand that the girl's shyness would be a concern for some brothers...but I am wondering if there is anything else besides that, (that could be a potential concern)?Are you familiar with the duas that are recited for a deceased man during the janazzah prayers? I've been to two janazzahs in the past two weeks. Here is a line from one of the prayers, "wa zawjan khayran min zawjihi" "and a wife better than his wife."

What kind of wife? "Feehinna qaasiraatut-tarfi..." "Therein will be those restraining of glance..." Those words are from the start of ayat 56 of Surah ar-Rahman, and they apply to the spouses that will be found in Jannat.

When I read those words some time ago, it just clicked with me that Allah subhanahu wata ala has not only described the reward of the akhirah for those who please Him in this life. He describes a quality to value in a spouse in this life, too.

The Prophet sull Allaho alayhi wa sallam told the sahaba that one of the qualities of a wife who should be treasured by a man, is that she should please him when he looks at her. Physical beauty is transient. But beautiful akhlaque will please a husband for the length of their marriage, and in sha Allah, at every time that he thinks about his wife's influence on his children.

Combining just these two reflections does not, for me, warrant rejecting out of hand a direct proposal. But when I think of direct proposals, I do not think of women who avert their glances. And I would be more careful in finding people who know her akhlaque.

I am just speaking for myself, though.

Sirius1
04-07-2007, 07:02 PM
c.i: but I would not prefer that a sister initiate the proposal at all.

c.ii: but if the sister wants to initiate the proposal, I would prefer that she used a walee to contact me or my family.

c.iii: and it would make no difference to me whether she initiated or I initiated the proposal process.

Choice c.i is for people who are borderline total rejection (red light) but who probably picked answer c because your second option rejects the idea so completely.

Choice c.iii is for people who would have picked your first option, if the language of your first option had not been so... enthusiastic. :)

Choice c.ii is not just a middle path :) And it's not just splitting hairs. It may be that a sister feels she has no option other than to initiate a proposal directly, but for me that would be like a "yellow-caution" signal.The thing with the question is, I had intended to put the respondents in the (hypothetical) situation so they could answer more 'naturally' (more like...what they would do, as opposed to what they are supposed to do...see the difference?).

In order to make the question somewhat worthwhile, each choice/response should be allowing only one attitude (and disallowing the rest)...that way...the measurement of the attitude is more concise. That also gives an explanation for the wording.

I don't know if the poll meets all those requirements, but I tried. I now notice that the 3rd option had some ambiguity. The intention with the wording was to keep it Islamically appropriate...hopefully, inshaAllah that requirement is met.

Thank you for the critique.

spana3rabia
04-07-2007, 07:02 PM
No problem. I considered the fourth option, but the third option was not wrong for me -- just not as specific as I would have liked.

Are you familiar with the duas that are recited for a deceased man during the janazzah prayers? I've been to two janazzahs in the past two weeks. Here is a line from one of the prayers, "wa zawjan khayran min zawjihi" "and a wife better than his wife."

What kind of wife? "Feehinna qaasiraatut-tarfi..." "Therein will be those restraining of glance..." Those words are from the start of ayat 56 of Surah ar-Rahman, and they apply to the spouses that will be found in Jannat.

When I read those words some time ago, it just clicked with me that Allah subhanahu wata ala has not only described the reward of the akhirah for those who please Him in this life. He describes a quality to value in a spouse in this life, too.

The Prophet sull Allaho alayhi wa sallam told the sahaba that one of the qualities of a wife who should be treasured by a man, is that she should please him when he looks at her. Physical beauty is transient. But beautiful akhlaque will please a husband for the length of their marriage, and in sha Allah, at every time that he thinks about his wife's influence on his children.

Combining just these two reflections does not, for me, warrant rejecting out of hand a direct proposal. But when I think of direct proposals, I do not think of women who avert their glances. And I would be more careful in finding people who know her akhlaque.

I am just speaking for myself, though.

just for clarifications sake, you are JUST speaking about direct proposals from women and not just proposals, no matter how its done,[through intermediary or not] in general...right?

Just because a woman proposes[whether it be thru an intermediary or a direct proposal] does not neccessitate that she is not averting her gaze.

was the hadith where the prophet [SallAllahu Alayhi wa sallam] told a man to look at the thing that will make him marry a woman [ie look at the prospective to decide whether marriage should be the next step]only for men...should not women decide if a man is suitable for her[appearance wise/character wise, etc etc] and how is she to do that unless she looks...not saying go willy nilly with this either.

WAllahu ta'ala Alam.

Sirius1
04-07-2007, 07:08 PM
No problem. I considered the fourth option, but the third option was not wrong for me -- just not as specific as I would have liked.

Are you familiar with the duas that are recited for a deceased man during the janazzah prayers? I've been to two janazzahs in the past two weeks. Here is a line from one of the prayers, "wa zawjan khayran min zawjihi" "and a wife better than his wife."

What kind of wife? "Feehinna qaasiraatut-tarfi..." "Therein will be those restraining of glance..." Those words are from the start of ayat 56 of Surah ar-Rahman, and they apply to the spouses that will be found in Jannat.

When I read those words some time ago, it just clicked with me that Allah subhanahu wata ala has not only described the reward of the akhirah for those who please Him in this life. He describes a quality to value in a spouse in this life, too.

The Prophet sull Allaho alayhi wa sallam told the sahaba that one of the qualities of a wife who should be treasured by a man, is that she should please him when he looks at her. Physical beauty is transient. But beautiful akhlaque will please a husband for the length of their marriage, and in sha Allah, at every time that he thinks about his wife's influence on his children.

Combining just these two reflections does not, for me, warrant rejecting out of hand a direct proposal. But when I think of direct proposals, I do not think of women who avert their glances. And I would be more careful in finding people who know her akhlaque.

I am just speaking for myself, though. Brother Taraqa,

Considering your explanation to pick choice c.ii, if it were availableÖIím trying to understandÖare you saying the difference between a woman who proposes directly and one who does it indirectly is the degree of restraint each (of these women) has over her glances?

Or are you saying that a woman who proposes directly would be relatively less shy than the one who proposes indirectly?

Sirius1
04-07-2007, 07:09 PM
oh wow @ sis spanarabia...that was timely :)

spana3rabia
04-07-2007, 07:36 PM
oh wow @ sis spanarabia...that was timely :)
hehe.

freedbyislam
04-08-2007, 12:20 AM
Just because a woman proposes[whether it be thru an intermediary or a direct proposal] does not neccessitate that she is not averting her gaze.
Agreed, and as my brother-in-law just mentioned to me, a woman might not be averting her gaze just because she uses an intermediary or makes no proposal on her own.

And at the other end of the spectrum a woman who proposes directly may have always averted her gaze, and may have made her decision based on what other people tell her about a brother's akhlaque, etc.

So I only have a preference, first for proposing through her walee/family, second for receiving a proposal through an intermediary, and third -- last -- for a direct proposal.

was the hadith where the prophet [SallAllahu Alayhi wa sallam] told a man to look at the thing that will make him marry a woman only for men...should not women decide if a man is suitable for her[appearance wise/character wise, etc etc] and how is she to do that unless she looks...not saying go willy nilly with this either.

Sunan Abu Dawood,[i] Book 9, Number 1660: (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/009.sat.html#009.1660) Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

When this verse was revealed: "And those who hoard gold and silver," the Muslims were grieved about it. Umar said: I shall dispel your care. He, therefore, went and said: Prophet of Allah, your Companions were grieved by this verse. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah has made zakat obligatory simply to purify your remaining property, and He made inheritances obligatory that they might come to those who survive you. Umar then said: Allah is most great. He then said to him: Let me inform you about the best a man hoards; it is a virtuous woman who pleases him when he looks at her, obeys him when he gives her a command, and guards his interests when he is away from her.

freedbyislam
04-08-2007, 12:37 AM
Brother Taraqa,

Considering your explanation to pick choice c.ii, if it were availableÖIím trying to understandÖare you saying the difference between a woman who proposes directly and one who does it indirectly is the degree of restraint each (of these women) has over her glances?

Or are you saying that a woman who proposes directly would be relatively less shy than the one who proposes indirectly?I would expect less shyness from the woman who proposes directly (face-to-face), and I would be less surprised if that woman had less restraint over her gaze. But these would be rebuttable presumptions for me. I could be convinced that they did not apply in a specific case, and so I would not rule out a direct proposal per se.

And I just had this thought: who else would be there during this proposal? If you have people there you're on the spot. If you don't... well, that does not sound halal to me.

freedbyislam
04-08-2007, 10:47 AM
Physical beauty is transient. But beautiful akhlaque will please a husband for the length of their marriage, and in sha Allah, at every time that he thinks about his wife's influence on his children.As I reread my post, I realize that I did not separate this comment -- which is my own thoughts on the hadith -- from the hadith itself. I apologize deeply and sincerely to anyone who was led to believe that those words were part of the hadith -- no one has told me that they were so misled, but it would be a great evil if that happened.

Allahhummaghfirlee maa qaddamtu, wa maa akkhartu, wa maa asrartu, wa maa 'alantu, wa maa asraftu, wa maa Anta 'alamo bihee minnee. Antal Muqaddimu, wa Antal Mu'akhkhiru, wa la ilaha illa Ant.

Allahumma, Anta Rabbee, la ilaha illa Ant. Khalaqtanee, wa anna abduk, wa ana 'alaa 'ahdika wa wa'dika maa mastatatu. Aoothobika min sharri maa san'aatu. Abu-ulaka bin-n'aymatika alaya, wa abu-u bithanbee. Faghrgirlee, fa-innahu laa yaghfiruth-thanuba illa Ant.

ibnislam
04-09-2007, 09:08 AM
Assalaamu alaykum,

I wouldn't consider it because I'm already married and really don't feel the need for another.

*EDIT*

I just remembered that the way I got married was that the initial proposal actually came from my wife's side. To be honestly, it DID attract my attention because I felt if the sister's side cares enough to actually take the initiative, then it IS something worth paying attention to.

*EDIT*

Ma'asalaam

Osob Mohamud
04-14-2007, 03:07 PM
I know I'm a sister too, but I just thought I'd mention something. Don't worry, I didn't vote.

Personally, I don't see the problem with a woman proposing marriage to a man. That guy should be flattered. That means someone is checking him out (in a halal way, inshaAllah), and finds him suitable for marriage. Some guys I see in my community find it so hard to find a good woman because they get turned down, so it discourages them even more sometimes. Accept or not, they should still be pretty pleased. I mean why not? Well, don't get cocky or anything, but it's got to be nice. And you gotta give props to the woman. She must have had to gather a lot of courage in order to do that, if it was face to face. So don't be offended, brothers. It's a good sign, inshaAllah.

I apologize if I offended anyone. I just thought it would make you feel better about the situation.

I agree with you as well.. say the girl doesnt have anyone in her city, and she ask a family memeber to find her someone,poss. it would be fine, either way if it works out alhamduliah and if doesnt than insha'allah there is someone else out there

Sirius1
04-14-2007, 05:16 PM
Just because a woman proposes[whether it be thru an intermediary or a direct proposal] does not neccessitate that she is not averting her gaze.

was the hadith where the prophet [SallAllahu Alayhi wa sallam] told a man to look at the thing that will make him marry a woman only for men...should not women decide if a man is suitable for her[appearance wise/character wise, etc etc] and how is she to do that unless she looks...not saying go willy nilly with this either.




WAllahu ta'ala Alam.Sunan Abu Dawood,[i] Book 9, Number 1660: (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/009.sat.html#009.1660)Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:



When this verse was revealed: "And those who hoard gold and silver," the Muslims were grieved about it. Umar said: I shall dispel your care. He, therefore, went and said: Prophet of Allah, your Companions were grieved by this verse. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah has made zakat obligatory simply to purify your remaining property, and He made inheritances obligatory that they might come to those who survive you. Umar then said: Allah is most great. He then said to him: Let me inform you about the best a man hoards; it is a virtuous woman who pleases him when he looks at her, obeys him when he gives her a command, and guards his interests when he is away from her. I believe the sister was talking about this . And I suppose she was saying, if its permissible for a man to look at a woman to find some attraction...shouldn't it also go vice versa?

PS: [Especially considering, a woman is allowed to have only one man in marriage at a given time].

Sirius1
04-14-2007, 05:26 PM
And I just had this thought: who else would be there during this proposal? If you have people there you're on the spot. If you don't... well, that does not sound halal to me.I am assuming when you say 'you', you mean it in the general sense.

When I say direct proposal, I don't mean a proposal that is done in total privacy where the guy and the girl are physically present...(the kind of seclusion we know is not allowed in Islam).

freedbyislam
04-15-2007, 02:03 PM
I believe the sister was talking about this . And I suppose she was saying, if its permissible for a man to look at a woman to find some attraction...shouldn't it also go vice versa?

PS: [Especially considering, a woman is allowed to have only one man in marriage at a given time].

[/indent]Jazak Allah khair, sister. I wanted to be certain that the hadith I had referred to before was not confused or misunderstood in any way through my sloppy use of it. So, since she had respond to my post, I clarified the hadith on which I relied.

tareq
06-03-2007, 11:24 PM
al-salaam-u-alikum

man i would be so happy if a girl propsed to me i would marry her on the spot!!!
thats for real

yasser_z
06-06-2007, 11:01 AM
lol be careful what u ask for akhi!

what if she's not your type? ... if u know what I mean :)

meryooma
07-14-2007, 12:31 AM
Bismillah,

I thought it was interesting how Sh. Yasser Birjas told the story about his friend who was proposed to by a woman (wearing naqab). Dude got so scared, he ran away. When he finished the story, continuing on about how she sought the intercession of a friend who's husband was friends with the guy, I thought it would be some kind of happy ending. But he still rejected her! Didn't sound too appealing...lol.

Kisswah the Camel
07-21-2007, 10:03 PM
i think everyone is having the same problem of finding someone my friend told me of this site that refers you to a couple reputable sites to help you find somone. They sound good so if u want to check it out it's [MOD.EDIT: NO OUTSIDE LINKS ALLOWED]

Kisswah the Camel
07-22-2007, 09:51 PM
Salams

I noticed that the link got censored from the forums. If you want to get the link from me, please email me using the contact info in the board.

Jazkullah Khair.

nybrother
03-17-2008, 06:51 AM
Assalamu 'alaikum

For those who are mentioning the hadith of the woman who proposed directly to the Messenger of Allah (sallaAllahu 'alayhi wasallam), you must also note that the wali is not mentioned in this hadith, correct? So maybe we should seek a commentary on this hadith to clarify the issue. Was she a previously-married sister or not? (Makes a difference.) Who was her wali?