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Sirius1
03-27-2007, 10:22 PM
Salaam Alaykum,

The past thread was meant for the brothers to share their views and answer sisters' questions. So, to make things fair, this thread is for the sisters to share their views on the premarital process of proposing or being proposed--what they think, how they feel, what they prefer. Brothers are allowed to ask general questions and make general comments that they may have. The poll is only for the sisters--brothers must not vote.

Married sisters can also vote on the poll. You will have to go back to your past and ask yourself this question.

The poll is NOT private...I thought I made it private, but I guess I didn't :( *My apologies* You can vote if you don't mind! :)

Jazakallah :)

Sirius1
03-27-2007, 10:43 PM
From the last thread, it seems that some brothers are curious as to why a woman would want to initiate a marriage proposal. Meaning…why would she want to take matters in her own hands?
Here are some hypothetical reasons…


She really likes him and is scared of letting him slide …
She doesn’t have a wali to support her… she's probably a convert...(actually a brother on different thread was mentioning this one)
I believe there are more reasons, which I expect others to add …

Sirius1
03-27-2007, 10:49 PM
But i'm of the opinion that as women, we should be pursued, and i believe that there's a quote of Aesha (ra) to this effect... It's the most beautiful thing to have someone persistently ask for your hand...get harassed by your dad, go through all sorts of hoops...all to declare his unwavering love for you!I’ve heard of real cases, where the guy threatens the bride’s family to carry her away if they don’t marry her to him. Some women are flattered by that. And that’s them. Khayr.

However, there are others, who can’t really give in to their pursuer’s love. Case of Mugheeth and Barira comes to mind. A man pursuing a woman doesn’t necessarily mean the woman liking the man. Some people’s heart loves very selectively.

There is a lot of diversity among human beings, subhanallah.

*I think, sometimes, a little initiative from a woman can go a long way…like a little initiative from Khadijah (ra) and Maymoona (ra) led them to becoming the Prophets’ (ra) wives’. From what I’ve read—they proposed the prophet (sa) through an intermediary; were not exactly ‘pursued’ in the sense--yet they got the best man!

Though, to get the best man, you don’t necessarily have to propose—Aisha (ra) and some other wives didn’t propose—they also got the best man.*

I think it depends on circumstances/personality.

Regardless, I was wondering about Aisha’s (ra) quote. Does anyone know?

AND…what do our Muslim sisters on the forums prefer/think about the topic? :)

Rabiah - la Voyageure ©
03-27-2007, 10:58 PM
I am like all coy to initiate the discussion.

Maybe someone else will throw in their 2 cents.

Hala
03-27-2007, 11:07 PM
Interesting topic indeed :)
Through an intermediary for me.

*Beautiful Patience*
03-27-2007, 11:11 PM
I think its best for the man to intiate marriage talks.... speaking as a woman myself , even if i felt that a brother was appropriate for me i would be way to shy, or would not even know how to go about approaching him! who would i ask to get information about him? what am i supose to say to this third party? Just all a little to overwhelming for me!
But i do get that another sister wouldnt want the chance to go by! Seeing as good brothers are hard to come by!

And as the old saying goes..."Tradition dies hard" As a female it seems a bit unrealistic and you would have to over come many obsitcles to try and approach a male.

Thats my opinion!

Rahma
03-28-2007, 12:26 AM
Definitely an interesting topic. My vote: I would say let the brother choose and handle all the proposing.

HopefulMuslimah
03-28-2007, 12:38 AM
mmmmmm
as the sister mentioned, it really depends on the circumstances and personal preferences. however, I chose "being proposed to by the man" preferably through a third party (if possible).
this is because generally as it was discussed in the other thread, some cultures see it as something else when the woman makes the first move directly/indirectly. and My culture is big on that (somalian culture).
So, even if you have good thoughts/intentions about a certain brother, you better keep it to yourself and just hope that he will do his "duty" one day. Unless there is someone you can really trust who knows the brother & might be able to assist you indirectly and you know they wont judge you.
otherwise you could find yourself in a situation you necessarily dont wanna be in (ppl thinking u r desperate, etc)

the answer is really Circumstantial, and if I were to generalise, this is my answer:

I probably would have answered this question differently about a year or two ago, and would probably answer it differently in a year or two BECAUSE life is a learning journey!

therefore, I rather be safe than sorry, unless the brother is realllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly worth the risk *wink* *wink*

Musafirah
03-28-2007, 08:04 AM
Sis. Sirius1....could you possibly make the poll private? ( the brothers pole was kept private :) )
jazakumAllahu Khayr..

Nida A.
03-28-2007, 08:34 AM
Depends on how you propose, obviously you can't be militant about it, that would scare anyone off. Something tells me a brother would be very flattered if a sister proposed to him directly...just thinking aloud ;)

Sirius1
03-28-2007, 11:08 AM
Anyone else?

I'm sure a lot of girls have an opinion about this!

Vote!!!

freedbyislam
03-28-2007, 12:24 PM
The poll is private...i.e. voter identity will not be revealed.

Jazakallah :)

Sister, with respect, the poll is (still) not private. I clicked on the poll results to see the numbers and saw more than that. The brothers' poll is private. Not this one.

You may want to delete the thread and start over.

QadrAllahi wa maa shaa'a fa'ala.

Sirius1
03-28-2007, 01:37 PM
My apologies. I thought I had selected the privacy option...how do I change this? anyone know? Help! I can't delete the thread. Only mods can.

Sirius1
03-28-2007, 03:34 PM
Sisters can still share their views...if they don't mind. :)

islamictruth1985
03-28-2007, 04:11 PM
i am no sister but just wanted to comment.
Even if a brother does propose directly, doesnt the decision go back to the parents. so it is still an intermediary situation!!!

spana3rabia
03-28-2007, 04:19 PM
^LOL to sister voyageur
i have no preference...as long as its done halal-ly.
Ofcourse i can definitely see cultural/societal standards to impede somewhat....

i say if a sister knows a brothah that is "the one"...and everything is right...then, go for it....only if you know your family won't disown you for it...and make sure his family isnt against that method.


for sisters to directly propose...wow, thats some brave sistahs.

use of an intermediary...i'd consider that as an option, but i dont know what my family would say...:O

spana3rabia
03-28-2007, 04:26 PM
i am no sister but just wanted to comment.
Even if a brother does propose directly, doesnt the decision go back to the parents. so it is still an intermediary situation!!!
is it really...going back to the parents is more like shura.

doesnt the use of intermediary mean going thru a middle person....going directly to the person isn;t going thru an intermediary. correct me if i'm wrong.
WaAllahu A'lam.

spana3rabia
03-28-2007, 04:41 PM
oh and just one piece of advise to the brothers: never ever propose directly to a sister(w/o intermediary)....that is all..

ZkrofAllah
03-28-2007, 04:46 PM
AsSalaam alaikum wa Rahmutallah,

Yessssss-- Finally the sisters are allowed to speak about this topic!

My personal belief--- i think its a BIG no no for a sister to directly propose to a brother. I have seen it happen several times that instead of things getting better from there and marriage being the next step-- it tends to open up doors for haram.

Im glad this issue has been brought up because this seems to be the "latest topics" amoung sisters for some reason.

Yes, its true that Khatijah (ra) proposed to Prophet Muhammed (saw) but from what i have read it wasnt a direct proposal.. that too was through someone else. and allah knows best.

There have been many other incidents in during the time of our Prophet (saw), when the ladies directly proposed to the sahaba-- but they knew their limits well and knew where to draw the line when it came to communication after that.

A close friend of mine proposed directly to her husband.. and alhumdulilah things worked out well.. but when we were discussing this topic she told me that whenever they get into arguments and he gets frustrated he always yells, " keep in mind that it is YOU who wanted to marry me, not the other way around." ( Im sure not all brothers would say something so harsh but its something to keep in mind)

Khair, i say patience is the key ... have sabr, and if he is the right one for you then Allah will make things work! So i vote for - Let him propose!

This is just what i think.. and feel free to disagree :)

Wallahu'alam

Hala
03-28-2007, 05:11 PM
AsSalaam alaikum wa Rahmutallah,

Yessssss-- Finally the sisters are allowed to speak about this topic!

My personal belief--- i think its a BIG no no for a sister to directly propose to a brother. I have seen it happen several times that instead of things getting better from there and marriage being the next step-- it tends to open up doors for haram. I agree here, the 'direct' proposal in my opinion, can be problematic.
However, my dear sister, allow me to disagree with you on one point. :)
I think, if a sister does propose directly, it wouldn't open up more than the average 'haram' doors that would open up it was done the other way around. How would that be any different from a brother proposing?


A close friend of mine proposed directly to her husband.. and alhumdulilah things worked out well.. but when we were discussing this topic she told me that whenever they get into arguments and he gets frustrated he always yells, " keep in mind that it is YOU who wanted to marry me, not the other way around." ( Im sure not all brothers would say something so harsh but its something to keep in mind)
Awww..that's kinda sad. I think, wallahu a'lam, that says something about the brother himself.
I think it obviously depends on his character, some brothers who aren't as mature would think that way. A friend of mine told me a story like that, and she mentioned her 'extension' rule: Make sure not to accept a proposal too quickly, else he might assume you like him as much (or more) as he likes you, which may lead to the situation above.

However, my belief is, that a brother with good akhlaaq would respect your proposal (if it was done correctly), even if he doesnt accept. That's why I voted with for the first option, with a go between, even though that's not how it happened with me ;)

Sirius1
03-28-2007, 05:20 PM
i am no sister but just wanted to comment.
Even if a brother does propose directly, doesnt the decision go back to the parents. so it is still an intermediary situation!!!Good point. But we are just discussing how the sisters feel about *Just the proposal part.* Final decision comes later!

Sirius1
03-28-2007, 05:37 PM
AsSalaam alaikum wa Rahmutallah,

A close friend of mine proposed directly to her husband.. and alhumdulilah things worked out well.. but when we were discussing this topic she told me that whenever they get into arguments and he gets frustrated he always yells, " keep in mind that it is YOU who wanted to marry me, not the other way around." ( Im sure not all brothers would say something so harsh but its something to keep in mind)Ouch!

Walaikum Salaam Wa Rahmatullah,

Y'know when I was considering all the options this thought came to my mind...like...what if the guy tells the girl "YOU are the one who wanted to marry ME!..." (like what's mentioned above).

Then I thought, before deciding to marry the sister should think with an open mind...she should not rush...judge how much the guy is inclined toward her proposal and before making a final decision take a trustworthy second opinion (parents, siblings, maybe friends?).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I think...if a girl happens to feel attracted towards a guy, she should keep her emotions in control and not go too far with that feeling before finding out* how he feels about her (*by staying in limits, ofcourse*)...guys who don't appreciate the proposal shouldn't be married! (I think) Attraction should be mutual. (Ofcourse, the same concept applies to the brothers!).

--------------

All that being said...Don't judge too fast! :)

craving-jannah
03-28-2007, 06:27 PM
I think its best for the man to intiate marriage talks.... speaking as a woman myself , even if i felt that a brother was appropriate for me i would be way to shy, or would not even know how to go about approaching him! who would i ask to get information about him? what am i supose to say to this third party? Just all a little to overwhelming for me!
But i do get that another sister wouldnt want the chance to go by! Seeing as good brothers are hard to come by!

And as the old saying goes..."Tradition dies hard" As a female it seems a bit unrealistic and you would have to over come many obsitcles to try and approach a male.

Thats my opinion!
I guess if a sister decides to propose to a brother through an intermediary, the brother does not need to know that it was the sister who initiated the proposal. The sister can approach a married sister, and that sister can make her husband talk to the brother, and get a feel of the water. If the brother is also interested...alhamdulillah.

Again, like I said in the other thread, "throw us (brothers) a bone here.":D

the only problem i seefrom this is, ego. We males have big egos; and if the brother is not deeni then that ego would take over him after marriage like the example the brother mentioned.

Sirius1
03-28-2007, 07:48 PM
I always wondered...if it would hurt a man's "ego" if the girl initiates the proposal, provided that the attraction is mutual.

bintNaim
03-29-2007, 12:45 AM
I guess if a sister decides to propose to a brother through an intermediary, the brother does not need to know that it was the sister who initiated the proposal. The sister can approach a married sister, and that sister can make her husband talk to the brother, and get a feel of the water. If the brother is also interested...alhamdulillah.
As for me, proposing through intermediary is the best way if you feel that you cannot let the go of the guy. I totally like your idea of how the married couple approach the brother. =)

islamictruth1985
03-29-2007, 01:08 AM
I always wondered...if it would hurt a man's "ego" if the girl initiates the proposal, provided that the attraction is mutual.
not that i have any experince. but since it is not typical or somthing you hear of usually, i would think it would be really big shock to a guy. as if you have poured a called gatorade jug on him..lol http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
wallahu a3'lam

Umm Salma
03-29-2007, 02:31 AM
I'm already married, and my marriage actually went through the traditional proposal (from the man, through an intermediary), but personally before that, I would have no problem going through any means to marry the man that I wanted.

Personally, I think the best way for a woman to propose to a man, is of course through an intermediary. I would say that is the most ideal way if she really wanted to snatch him up real quick :). If she couldn't do that, then she should talk to him herself, but should he accept her proposal, he should go about it traditionally, by asking her wali for her hand or at least mentioning to his parents that he wishes to marry this girl. In the end, if he wants to marry her, then who cares about who proposed to whom... just get married already! No need for details. Also, in that case, his parents wouldn't have to know that she approached him, if she didn't want to disclose that.

Umm Salma
03-29-2007, 02:36 AM
I always wondered...if it would hurt a man's "ego" if the girl initiates the proposal, provided that the attraction is mutual.Depending on the man's personality, it would either hurt his ego, or boost his ego. Or some men could just be neutral.

I would think if one man was getting more than one proposal from women, it would definitely boost his ego. His status would reach "most eligible bachelor." Wouldn't you think? I've seen this one from experience.

HopefulMuslimah
03-29-2007, 07:40 AM
I always wondered...if it would hurt a man's "ego" if the girl initiates the proposal, provided that the attraction is mutual.
same here,
I personally think it might, they might feel that the sister is kinda doing their job, u know wat i mean.
so the traditional way sounds ideal to me>>>>>>>the prince in his white horse nocks the door & asks for the sisters hand>>>>>parents +girl agree>>>>>>& they live happily ever after:):)

p.s. there is nothing wrong in dreaming;)......All power belongs to Allah.......so, don't wake me up

Sirius1
03-29-2007, 11:00 AM
In the end, if he wants to marry her, then who cares about who proposed to whom... just get married already! No need for details. Also, in that case, his parents wouldn't have to know that she approached him, if she didn't want to disclose that.
Yeah...I was thinking...when two individuals are 'in love' (within limits), they are so weak and desperate to get united...would they even care about which side the proposal comes from? I think not.

Wallahu Alim

Sirius1
03-29-2007, 11:16 AM
I encourage all the shy people to participate. :D

~Oum AbdurRahman~
03-29-2007, 02:06 PM
I chose "no preference".

It's totally okay to propose to a pious brother in my opinion.

If the brother is very knowledgeable , open minded, and mature, he will appreciate such a gesture insha'allah.

Siraaj
03-29-2007, 02:10 PM
You could consider my vote as being on behalf of my wife ;)

Siraaj

~Oum AbdurRahman~
03-29-2007, 02:29 PM
However we have to remember and I'm sure it's already been mentioned, that it also depends on the cultural backrounds of both parties. In the indo pak and arab cultures it's like a big no no. However in the westernized cultures, it's normal and there's nothing shameful or wrong with it. However, those of us who are new muslims, we take Islam for its originality and we follow the examples of those who were promised Jannah insha'Allah.

freedbyislam
03-29-2007, 05:29 PM
Yeah...I was thinking...when two individuals are 'in love' (within limits), they are so weak and desperate to get united...would they even care about which side the proposal comes from? I think not.

Wallahu Alim[emphasis added]

As someone who has not taken either Fiqh of Love or Love Notes, I admit that first phrase strikes me as odd. What exactly does it mean to be "in love within limits" and yet outside of marriage?

Isn't everything else that really is within limits merely a sign of (strong) attraction? An attraction that should be acted on either through proposal (whichever route that takes) or through eliminating the opportunity for overstepping the limits?

And in that vein, wouldn't the sign of being so weak or desperate be at least a warning sign? The kind of warning that helps show the wisdom behind a man fasting when he is not in the circumstances to marry?

ZkrofAllah
03-29-2007, 05:32 PM
[emphasis added]

As someone who has not taken either Fiqh of Love or Love Notes, I admit that first phrase strikes me as odd. What exactly does it mean to be "in love within limits" and yet outside of marriage?

Isn't everything else that really is within limits merely a sign of (strong) attraction? An attraction that should be acted on either through proposal (whichever route that takes) or through eliminating the opportunity for overstepping the limits?

And in that vein, wouldn't the sign of being so weak or desperate be at least a warning sign? The kind of warning that helps show the wisdom beyond a man fasting when he is not in the circumstances to marry?
AGREED!!!!!!

Sirius1
03-29-2007, 08:31 PM
[emphasis added]

As someone who has not taken either Fiqh of Love or Love Notes, I admit that first phrase strikes me as odd. What exactly does it mean to be "in love within limits" and yet outside of marriage?By in love (within limits)...I mean strong attraction. No haraam involved.

Isn't everything else that really is within limits merely a sign of (strong) attraction? An attraction that should be acted on either through proposal (whichever route that takes)...Yes. But I am not sure about the "merely" part.
...or through eliminating the opportunity for overstepping the limits? Its possible for people to be 'in love' without having the intention of overstepping the limits. Eliminating the opportunity doesn't necessarily mean forgetting about the beloved. This elimination (by elimination I'm assuming you mean separation or barred from seeing) may also have a negative effect on a person's health (both physical and psychological and according to Ibn Hazm, even death!)
And in that vein, wouldn't the sign of being so weak or desperate be at least a warning sign?By weak and desperate...I mean extremely eager to get married.

The kind of warning that helps show the wisdom behind a man fasting when he is not in the circumstances to marry? Wallahu Alim.

If you read Ibn Hazm's The Ring of the Dove (http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/hazm/dove/ringdove.html) you will understand where I am coming from. If the book seems too long, you could just read up the chapter entitled "Separation".

Sirius1
03-29-2007, 08:41 PM
I think there are more dimensions to love than what people typically think. Separating two individuals (lovers) isn't necessarily a cure to their 'illness'.

HopefulMuslimah
03-29-2007, 11:35 PM
I chose "no preference".

It's totally okay to propose to a pious brother in my opinion.

If the brother is very knowledgeable , open minded, and mature, he will appreciate such a gesture insha'allah.
the thing that comes to mind when I read that is, how would you know that the brother is open minded and mature??? because the information you gather about him is most likely from a different angel of his life. i mean you migth hear about how religious, practising and open minded the brother is but that might be in relation to the way he deals with his friends or family.
hope that made sense

I'm not making any kinda inference here, just curious :)

Sirius1
03-30-2007, 11:29 AM
p.s. there is nothing wrong in dreaming;)......All power belongs to Allah.......so, don't wake me up
Don't forget the dua-ing part! ;)

Sirius1
03-30-2007, 07:06 PM
Perhaps, some people don't realize that the poll is for the sisters, only. Though this is not real research tis messin' up the data! http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon9.gif

freedbyislam
03-30-2007, 10:29 PM
Perhaps, some people don't realize that the poll is for the sisters, only. Though this is not real research tis messin' up the data! http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon9.gif
Then in the interests of accuracy, maybe it was good that the poll is not anonymous! But in any case, QadrAllahi wa maa shaa'a fa'ala.

Umm Alzubayr86
03-30-2007, 11:25 PM
As many would agree, it is yet but a taboo to initiate something to a brother. Personally, I wouldn't take the risk and do it, or will I? I mean, the fact of the matter is, he will always have in his mind if you marry him "well, you're the one who asked me to marry you" Admit it...GUYS do think that way. However, if I see the brother is worth it (and YOU WILL know if the brother is worth it, by his rep in the community, how active he is in islamic events, is he a leader in some kind of islamic organization, is he seen in masajids often, is he a familiar face to the Imams, ect...ect....) Then, it;s probably best if the sister sends a Walee, or a third party to ask him. Wallaho Alam. I mean, we must look into the sunnah as well. Khadija (Radya Allah 'Anha) did initiate her proposal to the Rasul, but we must learn how she did it, who did she send (was it a trust worthy person, or not) and what were her etiquettes of going about. Wallaho Alam.

Sirius1
03-31-2007, 09:46 AM
I mean, the fact of the matter is, he will always have in his mind if you marry him "well, you're the one who asked me to marry you" Admit it...GUYS do think that way..You know about this whole the guy blaming the woman for the marriage remark, I see that happening only when there is lack of judgment/maturity on the woman's part with regards to the guy. Not all guys are the same. There is a lot of diversity among humanbeings and in order to judge between men, a woman must think smartly and make her judgments wisely before deciding to propose. (No, I am not eliminating the wali's role as proposal does not equal marriage.)

I think these sort of blaming games are a result of a conflicted relationship. I don't see them as being a result of a woman's proposal (whether direct or intermediary) the same way in which a woman blaming the man (for the marriage) is not a result of the man's proposal. (I mean...come on...someone needs to take the initiative!)

Furthermore I don't see the "Our marriage--Your* fault!" (*your=spouse or 3rd party...usually parents) remark as being related to the proposal process from anywhere unless one is pondering over who would win a hypothetical post-marital argument and compiling a list of hurtful remarks for that reason. I don't think most people get married to argue.

On a side note: Such blaming could also happen in arranged marriages...except that, in this case, instead of the spouse getting the blame (for the marriage) the spouse's parents or one's own parents get blamed. I have seen such things happen in real life.

However, if I see the brother is worth it (and YOU WILL know if the brother is worth it, by his rep in the community, how active he is in islamic events, is he a leader in some kind of islamic organization, is he seen in masajids often, is he a familiar face to the Imams, ect...ect....)I think how a woman's decides a man's worth is subjective. A single definition of a man's worthiness doesn't work for every woman. How one woman defines a worthy man could be/is vastly different from how another one does it. :)

Wallahu Alim.

brother_bruce
03-31-2007, 11:57 AM
(and YOU WILL know if the brother is worth it, by his rep in the community, how active he is in islamic events, is he a leader in some kind of islamic organization, is he seen in masajids often, is he a familiar face to the Imams, ect...ect....)
just a tip: this doesnt really mean all that much. public life vs private live can be total opposites. look for more subtle signs and stuff.

heavens_scent
03-31-2007, 12:12 PM
just a tip: this doesnt really mean all that much. public life vs private live can be total opposites. look for more subtle signs and stuff.Agreed!!!

This reminds me of what a friend once said:
If you want to know the real character of a person, get someone whom he doesnt know to punch him out of nowhere then observe his reaction. lol

Safyah
03-31-2007, 12:33 PM
Ouch!



Also, I think...if a girl happens to feel attracted towards a guy, she should keep her emotions in control and not go too far with that feeling before finding out* how he feels about her (*by staying in limits, ofcourse*).

--------------

asalaamu alaikum wa rahmatallahi wa barakatu,
About what was mentioned above..

I have to say that if a sister is 'attracted' to a guy, then perhaps that says something about her and the state of her iman.

I mean it sometimes happens that when a sister comes across a good brother and is like 'Mash Allah he is a great brother'... however, if she entertains her admiration to the point of wanting to propose to him or hoping that he will purpose to her, I personally think the girl is not keeping herself busy enough. I think, just like men, women when they are single should keep themselves busy in order to not fall into traps like this, where they feel a desperation to get this 'one' guy. It is all in Allah's hands and like Allah says in the Quran 'Atiyboon lil tayibat...' Basically, I think a single sister should be too busy preparing for her future (to be a good wife, via increasing her knowledge and bettering her akhlaq) and of course including the akhira; to ever stop and like a guy is a 'red light' that she isn't focusing her potential on something more beneficial, it's not up to her to find her potential spouse. Instead she should keep her deen intact (memorization of Quran etc.), help and spend time with her family, and just enjoy being single, until Allah opens the path to marriage for her.. Meaning either a brother knows her or 'of' her, her family, or a friend's wife that recommends her. That I believe is the most 'haya-full' way of approaching this matter.

Subhanalllah, this is a good topic, but if one was to seriously be putting their trust in Allah, this shouldn't be a matter of concern.. Meaning 'how' the proposal takes place.. he/she.. etc. obviously there are some exceptions and some sisters propose, however I would never do it.. even if I had an intermediary I would not let them tell the brother I was interested in him, because I know that Allah knows what is best, and sometimes we can think something is good for us when it really isn't. Basically, the shaitan can play with our minds in such circumstances.

On a sidenote.. if a sister ever feels an inclination of admiration towards anyone she should try to immediately seek refuge in Allah, rid herself of ever 'seeing/being around' that person anywhere and any time and try to bring herself closer to Allah.. because she should want Allah to choose for her, and her job is to keep her chastity, and keep her iman shooting upwards ;)

How do I know this is right? well, I have found that admiration distances one from Allah (whomever/whatever it is that you admire).. so whatever keeps the mind busy from the remembrance of Allah is not of benefit.. makes sense?

I don't think women are physiologically created to endure the stress of finding a spouse and deciding on their own in such matters. Don't sisters' fathers have to do the 'filtering'-- I think with that alone a lot is said.

Maybe, we could all use a little more Tawakal.. Allah is the Wakil..

Wa-astaghfirallah 3azawajal if I said anything wrong.

Rabiah - la Voyageure ©
03-31-2007, 12:39 PM
You read my mind Sr. Safyah :D

barakAllaah feeki.

Safyah
03-31-2007, 12:57 PM
You read my mind Sr. Safyah :D

barakAllaah feeki.
wa feeki inshallah..

But I don't think I read your mind.. just mine.. :D

Rabiah - la Voyageure ©
03-31-2007, 01:13 PM
It's all the same. Atleast the thought is out :P

Sirius1
03-31-2007, 02:45 PM
Sister Safiyah...though you have made some good points in your posts, some of the remarks that have been made make me wonder if you have taken either Fiqh of Love or Love Notes?

Getting attracted to the opposite gender is a natural part of being human. What you do with that attraction determines your "haya-ness" or "haya-lessness."

Also I am going to say one needs to look at Islamic perspective on the concept of attraction and subsequent proposal (for marriage) and examples in the sunnah before forming our thoughts/opinions. :)

Please read how the marriage of each mother of the believers with the Prophet (sa) had taken place (along with their pre-marital background info).

Rabiah - la Voyageure ©
03-31-2007, 02:52 PM
What I thought when she mentioned attraction was from a different perspective.
Even if you are attracted by someone - then let not that attraction take over you.
Rujoo3 to Allaah azza wa jall and let Him take care of things. Instead of you dwelling yourself in the thought.
Attraction is one thing, and to pursue that attraction is a different thing, sah?

Sirius1
03-31-2007, 03:04 PM
When you get attracted to someone, you make dua to Allah...and do the things that are permissible in Islam (like proposing to get married) to calm your heart/brain. If you stay absorbed in the attraction without doing anything about it, you waste your time. Thats understood. :)

Safyah
03-31-2007, 04:07 PM
What I thought when she mentioned attraction was from a different perspective.
Even if you are attracted by someone - then let not that attraction take over you.
Rujoo3 to Allaah azza wa jall and let Him take care of things. Instead of you dwelling yourself in the thought.
Attraction is one thing, and to pursue that attraction is a different thing, sah?sah, you read my mind :D

Sirius1
03-31-2007, 05:38 PM
....Yes there are many venues to gaining knowlegde and not just these courses. Yes I had created this thread for the sisters to share their opinions. This is a public forum so you are free to share your thoughts (if asked) on here. However it is important that one has correct Islamic knowledge on the topic at hand before giving his/her opinion. That part of the responsibility falls on the person posting, not me.

I'm not sure if you have read my first few posts on this thread...I did mention that Khadijah (ra) and Maymoona (ra) had proposed to the prophet (sa) through an intermediary.

I think you made some good remarks about not letting your 'attraction' for a man consume your thoughts to the extent that it has a negative impact on other areas of life or affects your relationship with Allah...there is more to life than 'falling in love' and getting married.

This thread is not directly about me...so there is no question of me being personally offended or 'feeling better or worse' by the comments that are made here (unless the comments get personal).

Hope you are not offended by my comments. :)

Safyah
03-31-2007, 06:36 PM
well, jazaki allahi kheyran..

May Allah increase us all in knowledge

I guess I just gained one more reason to stay the 'quite one'-- I don't normally voice my opinions on these fourms.. but al-hamdulilah.
Anyway, ya ukhti, I learned a lot, barakallahu feeki :)..
wasalaamu alaikum wa rahmatallahi wa barakatu.

Sirius1
04-01-2007, 08:50 AM
May Allah increase us all in knowledge.. Ameen.
I guess I just gained one more reason to stay the 'quite one'-- I don't normally voice my opinions on these fourms.. but al-hamdulilah. .I hope you are not :( b/c that was not my intention. :)

You don't have to stay quite...you can take the classes, ask questions, then have discussions and benefit. Thanks for voting, btw...its really appreciated.
Anyway, ya ukhti, I learned a lot, barakallahu feeki :)..
wasalaamu alaikum wa rahmatallahi wa barakatu.I suggest that you take Love notes when it comes to your city, inshaAllah (I don't know where you live) or you could even read The Ring of the Dove (http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/hazm/dove/ringdove.html) by Ibn Hazm. Its a good book about this whole love phenomenon. If not, (then like you have said) ... there are other venues to gaining this kind of knowledge! Whatever your choice, please continue coming on these forums (esp. this folder ;))!

Walaikum as-salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

heavens_scent
04-01-2007, 09:46 AM
Interesting discussion. However, as for me I go by the saying " I dont like to haunt, I like to be haunted" in other words, no i would never propose to a guy. I just think thats somewhat reversing the laws of nature. :)

As for our beloved Khadijah (ra) i think her circimstances and the person who she was proposing to was different. There were many women who proposed to the prophet (Saw) and honeslty they had a REASON to, considering he was the best/perfect man on earth. As for nowadays... can we compare her situation and ourselves with her?

Just a quick question for those who took FOL or LN were there sahabiyaat (female companions)who proposed to the (sahabah) companions of the prophet (saw)?

Sirius1
04-01-2007, 10:58 AM
As for our beloved Khadijah (ra) i think her circimstances and the person who she was purposing to was different. There were many women who purposed to the prophet (Saw) and honeslty they had a REASON to, considering he was the best/perfect man on earth. As for nowadays... can we compare her situation and ourselves with her?)I don't see this as comparing situations or comparing men...I see it as whether or not the deed (proposing) is permissible. If it is, then alhamdulillah. If something is permissible in Islam, then I don't see why we should debate it. (If there are any reasons for debating, then please let me know. I may not be aware.) Also, please read this hadith: Click Me!

Just a quick question for those who took FOL or LN were there sahabiyaat (female companions)who purposed to the (sahabah) companions of the prophet (saw)?Its true that the sahabis and the sahabiyats had a great status. However, I think before we look at them we should look at the Prophet (sa). More specifically, before we look at the sahabiyats we should look at the mothers of the believers. Some people might say the example of Khadijah cannot be used as it is before Islam...I don't know if you have read Maymoona's (ra) story of marriage...from what I know she had proposed the Prophet (sa) through an intermediary (that happened after Islam was revealed). Wallahu Alim.

**This question is testing the trend among the Muslimah's more than anything else...also gives an insight to the psychological makeup of women.**

Wallahu Alim

Safyah
04-01-2007, 11:04 AM
Ameen.
you could even read The Ring of the Dove (http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/hazm/dove/ringdove.html) by Ibn Hazm. Its a good book about this whole love phenomenon.
Mashallah, good idea.. I guess there was a reason for me to get involved in this forum, subhanallah. May I ask, if I start reading that book, would you be able to answer any questions/clarifications needed? (I guess we could exchange e-mail addresses.. )
As far as the the courses, I have been wanting to take them, however I live too far, and since I am in college I can't travel etc.
I took one course (aqeedah 101), that was taught by a local sister after having attended al-maghrib... inshallah maybe one day I will take an 'actual' al-maghrib course.:D

barakallahu feeki..

heavens_scent
04-01-2007, 02:11 PM
I don't see this as comparing situations or comparing men...I see it as whether or not the deed (proposing) is permissible. If it is, then alhamdulillah. If something is permissible in Islam, then I don't see why we should debate it. (If there are any reasons for debating, then please let me know. I may not be aware.) Also, please read this hadith: Click Me!

Its true that the sahabis and the sahabiyats had a great status. However, I think before we look at them we should look at the Prophet (sa). More specifically, before we look at the sahabiyats we should look at the mothers of the believers. Some people might say the example of Khadijah cannot be used as it is before Islam...I don't know if you have read Maymoona's (ra) story of marriage...from what I know she had proposed the Prophet (sa) through an intermediary (that happened after Islam was revealed). Wallahu Alim.

**This question is testing the trend among the Muslimah's more than anything else...also gives an insight to the psychological makeup of women.**

Wallahu Alim
humm i believe you took my words out of context. I dont think the purpose of this thread was to debate whether the issue of women proposing to men was permissible or not sa7? We all know it is through what Khadijah (ra) did.

Regarding my question about the sahabiyaat- I simply wanted an informative scenario...thats all. :)

Otherwise you rock sista!... these two threads you started are very appealing topics! :D

In the end i was just sharing my own thoughts. The questions i asked were just out of curiosity.

Jazakillahu khayran habibti!

Wasalaam

Sirius1
04-01-2007, 02:13 PM
Mashallah, good idea.. I guess there was a reason for me to get involved in this forum, subhanallah. May I ask, if I start reading that book, would you be able to answer any questions/clarifications needed? (I guess we could exchange e-mail addresses.. )InshaAllah, I can explain to you whatever I understand...a better idea would be posting your questions on the forum, in this folder so everyone can benefit. There are people here who are more knowledgeable than I, who might be of help. In any case, my email address is **** dot com. :)

Salaam Alaykum

Sirius1
04-01-2007, 02:20 PM
humm i believe you took my words out of context. I dont think the purpose of this thread was to debate whether the issue of women proposing to men was permissible or not sa7? We all know it is through what Khadijah (ra) did.

Regarding my question about the sahabiyaat- I simply wanted an informative scenario...thats all. :)

Otherwise you rock sista!... these two threads you started are very appealing topics! :D

In the end i was just sharing my own thoughts. The questions i asked were just out of curiosity.

Jazakillahu khayran habibti!

WasalaamI guess I made a presumption (sorry :)). By debating, I meant discussing (the permissibility).

Jazakallah khair for sharing your thoughts, that's what this thread was created for.

~Oum AbdurRahman~
04-02-2007, 12:08 AM
asalaamu alaikum wa rahmatallahi wa barakatu,
About what was mentioned above..

I have to say that if a sister is 'attracted' to a guy, then perhaps that says something about her and the state of her iman.

I mean it sometimes happens that when a sister comes across a good brother and is like 'Mash Allah he is a great brother'... however, if she entertains her admiration to the point of wanting to propose to him or hoping that he will purpose to her, I personally think the girl is not keeping herself busy enough. I think, just like men, women when they are single should keep themselves busy in order to not fall into traps like this, where they feel a desperation to get this 'one' guy. It is all in Allah's hands and like Allah says in the Quran 'Atiyboon lil tayibat...' Basically, I think a single sister should be too busy preparing for her future (to be a good wife, via increasing her knowledge and bettering her akhlaq) and of course including the akhira; to ever stop and like a guy is a 'red light' that she isn't focusing her potential on something more beneficial, it's not up to her to find her potential spouse. Instead she should keep her deen intact (memorization of Quran etc.), help and spend time with her family, and just enjoy being single, until Allah opens the path to marriage for her.. Meaning either a brother knows her or 'of' her, her family, or a friend's wife that recommends her. That I believe is the most 'haya-full' way of approaching this matter.

Subhanalllah, this is a good topic, but if one was to seriously be putting their trust in Allah, this shouldn't be a matter of concern.. Meaning 'how' the proposal takes place.. he/she.. etc. obviously there are some exceptions and some sisters propose, however I would never do it.. even if I had an intermediary I would not let them tell the brother I was interested in him, because I know that Allah knows what is best, and sometimes we can think something is good for us when it really isn't. Basically, the shaitan can play with our minds in such circumstances.

On a personal note.. if a sister ever feels an inclination of admiration towards anyone she should try to immediately seek refuge in Allah, rid herself of ever 'seeing/being around' that person anywhere and any time and try to bring herself closer to Allah.. because she should want Allah to choose for her, and her job is to keep her chastity, and keep her iman shooting upwards ;)

How do I know this is right? well, I have found that admiration distances one from Allah (whomever/whatever it is that you admire).. so whatever keeps the mind busy from the remembrance of Allah is not of benefit.. makes sense?

I mean the whole 'should I propose to him.. should I wait..' mind set can keep a sister anxiety full and she may not even realize it but her ibadah starts to drop/kashoo, her relations with her family changes and I don't think women are physiologically created to endure the stress of finding a spouse and deciding on their own in such matters. Don't sisters' fathers have to do the 'filtering'-- I think with that alone a lot is said.

Maybe, we could all use a little more Tawakal.. Allah is the Wakil..

Wa-astaghfirallah 3azawajal if I said anything wrong.




If one is too rigid in the religion, the religion will overcome them. That comes from a hadeeth but I don't want to quote it due to the fact that I haven't rememberised it's exact narration.

Let it be reminded, that marriage, in itself, is worship. Marriage, is a form of 3ibaadah, just like reading Qur'an, adhkaar, praying salaat, ect. Also, let it be known, that attraction, isn't something we should look at as shameful, or 3aib, or haraam, or that it's not being shy. No actually it's perfectly normal for a sister to have some kind of attraction to a man, this is a how Allah created Banaat Hawaa. The test of ones iman comes into play, as to HOW she deals with that attraction. Therefore she can ask her father or her uncle or her bestfriend, sister, about that targeted attraction, for the purpose of marriage. Is that considered not being shy? No. Does she want to marry a man who is arranged for her and then she has to marry him and has no attraction or even liking to the simple description of the stranger? I wouldn't. Why go through a miserable marriage and then a horrendous divorce?

Imam Ibn Hazm rahimAllah was one who actually encouraged marriage, and made it known to all that al hub, or love, is not forbidden, instead it's how one deals with that feeling, is what can lead one to sin.

RasulAllah 3aleyhi salat wa salaam said, "The best act for lovers is marriage."

Therefore if one is in love, it's best to marry.

Al Nabi, salallahu 3alayhi wa salam announced to all his sahaaba, that he loved his wife.

We cannot conclude that there is a problem with a sister's iman, if she feels an attraction for a brother. Now let's say the sister has no wali or relatives? Then what? Let's say she's divorced. Let us say, she is a new muslim, and has no one to support her? So is her searching for marriage considered an act of weak iman? NOOOO bil aks, that is considered all 3ibaadah, because she is trying to protect herself and her religion from the visitudes of the kaafr society she lives in, through marriage.


Wahid yiakhud al asbaab, wa yitwaakul 3ala Allah.

One takes the means, and then puts their trust in Allah.
Wa Allahu Ta'ala 3alem.

Rabiah - la Voyageure ©
04-02-2007, 01:03 AM
As I agreed with what sister Safyah mentioned above, I may as well throw in some of my thoughts as well.
No one minds if I do? Ok, good.

I think you only read one of sr. Safyah's post and posted a reply :) There were a number of opinions shared after that post.
No one is saying that attraction is an 3aib. I clearified that perception in the last page, and sister Safyah agreed with it. (sorry for putting u on spot here :P)
Attraction is a natural phenomenon and we don't have a control over the attraction itself. It's the aftermath of such an attraction that may or may not be 3aibful. And that is what is being discussed over here, which is totally swaying away from the topic initially created to discuss.

There is nothing wrong with one's Iman if s/he feels the attraction. It's a healthy sign inshaAllaah, that one's heart isn't dead.
But your iman can be in danger if you don't do anything about that certain attraction. And that's when the whole Rujoo3ing to Allaah azza wa jall and asking Him to guide your heart comes in place. He, subhanahu wa ta'ala controls the hearts and we leave it onto Him to give them a sense of righteousness.

It's ok if you feel like sinning. What matters is that you refrain from sinning. As discussed in Rules of Engagement that the one who is tested with a desire, and then refrain from it has more reward than the one who didn't have a desire in the first place. Anyone knows what I am talking about?


Therefore she can ask her father or her uncle or her bestfriend, sister, about that targeted attraction, for the purpose of marriage. Is that considered not being shy? No. Does she want to marry a man who is arranged for her and then she has to marry him and has no attraction or even liking to the simple description of the stranger? I wouldn't. Why go through a miserable marriage and then a horrendous divorce?

Exactly why one seeks the girl's consent before getting her wed! There are no force marriages in Islam for that very reason. Alhumdulillaah!
Hence, if you do feel attracted, then just pray that Allaah subhanahu wa taala guide that person's heart to be attracted to you as well, if it is the best thing for you, as He Knows Best. If it is not, then simply make duaa to Allaah azza wa jall, to take your heart away from that attraction.

May Allaah subhanahu wa taala forgive me if I did any harm to anyone. It wasn't my intention to do so.

P.s. I totally loved the word rememberised! :D

Sirius1
04-02-2007, 08:24 AM
It's ok if you feel like sinning. What matters is that you refrain from sinning. As discussed in Rules of Engagement that the one who is tested with a desire, and then refrain from it has more reward than the one who didn't have a desire in the first place. Anyone knows what I am talking about? Hmm..I'm not sure if that analogy applies here as being in love is not sinning. Hearts are simply in the hands of Allah. Also, as a reminder, the Prophet (sa) did not classify Mugheeth's love for Barira as a sin. I believe he (Mugheeth) used to go to Barira even after she sought separation (divorce??) from him, pleading her to come back. The Prophet (sa) didn't say that he was sinning.

I think...invokation of a random desire (at a random sight) and desiring someone for marriage (desperate unification) are two different things.

Wallahu Alim

PS: I have taken Rules of Engagement and I remember that 'being tested with desire' statement being mentioned.

Wallahu Alim

Safyah
04-02-2007, 08:54 AM
I don't believe attraction is 3ayeb, however what is not good is to let that attraction direct your thoughts to unlawful ideas, even if you do not do them. That was what I was talking about, when I said that a sister's iman may be at risk when her attraction leads to an obsession. Allahu a3lam.. I don't feel qualified to expand any more than that.
As for a sister without a Wali, and other circumstances as such, yes I would agree that she must search for a match..I just think she shouldn't do it by 'looking' around, but rather employ a married a couple to do it for her, not forgetting to give detailed explanation of what she wants or rather, that's how I would do it if I was in such a situation.. and like said before, I am not qualified to expand further.. wastughfirallah al-3ali al-3atheem.
sister Sirius, I will e-mail u inshallah..

Sirius1
04-02-2007, 10:11 AM
InshaAllah, the points have been made clear, so we can now get back on track, inshaAllah. :)

Sabiqoon
04-02-2007, 11:28 AM
wow, interesting topic.

here is my two cents:

knowing someone who did propose to a brother indirectly/directly etc.

I'd say it is not a good idea no matter how good the brother is(especially not directly under any cirumstances). It is because women will feel more hurt than men regardless.
Also, for a single never married before sister is not a good idea especially if she has a walee already. If she doesnt and she is a convert, then that is another story.

Mostly though, I think for a widowed(which Khadijah RA was) and divorced women it is different, they do not need the permission of their walee and for them to initiate or propose makes sense since they are wiser and more mature and experienced in terms of marriage life and know what kind of characteristics they are looking for in a person.

However, seeing how it has become so difficult nowadays. If a sister knows of a brother who has good character, she should talk to her parents first and then see if she can get an intermediary to facilitate the process for her(but that wont mean she is "proposing" per se, just expressing some interest in order to get married). If in turn the brother is ready to get married(which often times it is not the case that is why it is another reason why sisters shouldnt propose right away even through intermediary, because thye do not know the financial readiness or readiness of the brother to get married) then the brother might propose officially to the sister.

Safyah
04-02-2007, 12:30 PM
wow, interesting topic.

here is my two cents:

knowing someone who did propose to a brother indirectly/directly etc.

I'd say it is not a good idea no matter how good the brother is(especially not directly under any cirumstances). It is because women will feel more hurt than men regardless.
Also, for a single never married before sister is not a good idea especially if she has a walee already. If she doesnt and she is a convert, then that is another story.

Mostly though, I think for a widowed(which Khadijah RA was) and divorced women it is different, they do not need the permission of their walee and for them to initiate or propose makes sense since they are wiser and more mature and experienced in terms of marriage life and know what kind of characteristics they are looking for in a person.

However, seeing how it has become so difficult nowadays. If a sister knows of a brother who has good character, she should talk to her parents first and then see if she can get an intermediary to facilitate the process for her(but that wont mean she is "proposing" per se, just expressing some interest in order to get married). If in turn the brother is ready to get married(which often times it is not the case that is why it is another reason why sisters shouldnt propose right away even through intermediary, because thye do not know the financial readiness or readiness of the brother to get married) then the brother might propose officially to the sister.
That's some very good points..

Sirius1
04-02-2007, 02:32 PM
I think the brothers need a poll of their own. :)

freedbyislam
04-02-2007, 06:38 PM
If she doesnt and she is a convert, then that is another story.That is a very good reason for such sisters to get to the wife of a local imam, if that is possible. In the event the sister has no walee of her own, because her family did not convert, or because she is yateem and no one took up the mantle of being her walee, or for some other such reason, the local imam can often act as her walee.

But that principle is not easy when the imam does not know anything about the sister. So, getting to know his wife should give him a source of information about her personality that will assist him in helping her.

and wAllahHo'Alim.

Umm Salma
04-03-2007, 10:53 PM
The discussion about what a sister is to do when she gains an attraction for a man reminded me of this hadith, as quoted from Shaykh Muhammad's DiscoverU program:

One day Allah's Messenger, sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, noticed a
Bedouin leaving his camel without tying it. He asked the
Bedouin, "Why don't you tie down your camel?"
The Bedouin answered, "I placed my trust in Allah."
At that, the Prophet, sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, said, "Tie
your camel and place your trust in Allah" - Tirmidhi

[Lessons from this hadith] Placing trust in Allah means doing
everything that is necessary for success! <--that's a big one!

I believe this should also apply to a woman who wants to marry a certain man. If she wants to marry him, she should "tie him down" and then put her trust in Allah. In whatever means she is able to do that, whether it be proposing to him directly or indirectly, as long as the methods are permissible in Islam.

And Allah knows best.

ammatu'rahman
04-03-2007, 11:42 PM
p.s. there is nothing wrong in dreaming;)......All power belongs to Allah.......so, don't
wake me up[/QUOTE]
LOL I too am fast asleep in that fairytale land. Allah is all powerful. :)

ammatu'rahman
04-03-2007, 11:45 PM
I'm not sure about the whole intermediary thing. I'm Way too chicken and would be CRUSHED if rejected. Yep... I would go into system overload and self destruct :)

Sirius1
04-04-2007, 11:58 AM
If she wants to marry him, she should "tie him down" and then put her trust in Allah. In whatever means she is able to do that, whether it be proposing to him directly or indirectly, as long as the methods are permissible in Islam.

And Allah knows best.:) Good point. Jazakallah for mentioning.

Sirius1
04-04-2007, 01:24 PM
Mostly though, I think for a widowed(which Khadijah RA was) and divorced women it is different, they do not need the permission of their walee and for them to initiate or propose makes sense since they are wiser and more mature and experienced in terms of marriage life and know what kind of characteristics they are looking for in a person.Hmm...an interesting point...I must say.

*Just to reiterate, proposing doesnot necessarily equal marriage. Like I said before..we are discussing the proposal part here, marriage comes later, inshaAllah. (Just differentiating between the two).* :)

Jazakallah

Basem Talha
04-04-2007, 01:43 PM
I am not sure that all muslims understand the difference between proposal,engagment,and marriage so allow me to make it a bit clear for all of us. A proposal is just asking someone to marry you while a engagement is a PROMISE of marriage and it can go through and after some time they get married or after sometime if they have problem then they can part ways and separate. Marriage is when the woman and man unite together as one unit and protect each other things and live according to Allah rules as mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah. Hope i made this a little more clear.

Rising-Ayesha
04-04-2007, 02:49 PM
quote of Aesha (ra) to this effect... It's the most beautiful thing to have someone persistently ask for your hand...get harassed by your dad, go through all sorts of hoops...all to declare his unwavering love for you! Yap, thats the whole reason...:)

ammatu'rahman
04-04-2007, 03:11 PM
I think its best for the man to intiate marriage talks.... speaking as a woman myself , even if i felt that a brother was appropriate for me i would be way to shy, or would not even know how to go about approaching him! who would i ask to get information about him? what am i supose to say to this third party? Just all a little to overwhelming for me!
But i do get that another sister wouldnt want the chance to go by! Seeing as good brothers are hard to come by!

And as the old saying goes..."Tradition dies hard" As a female it seems a bit unrealistic and you would have to over come many obsitcles to try and approach a male.

Thats my opinion!I totally agree with you !!!!

soul purity
04-04-2007, 03:58 PM
bismillah.
very interesting topic. for me it would be the man proposing. but really i haven't heard if anything is wrong in the sister doing it first, though in the halaal way. i think it depends on the situation. for instance, different guys have been coming to this sister but she doesn't see what she wants in them, but there is this brother who's all she's been asking for but he isn't coming.shouldn't she do the asking?
personally though i would never do that. i know it sounds a bit .......... but i guess i'm attached to some aspects of my culture which will have ABSOLUTELY none of that. anyways i think anyone caught up in this dillemma should do the right thing? if he is really worth it.
wa allahu'alam.

~Oum AbdurRahman~
04-07-2007, 05:21 AM
The discussion about what a sister is to do when she gains an attraction for a man reminded me of this hadith, as quoted from Shaykh Muhammad's DiscoverU program:

One day Allah's Messenger, sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, noticed a
Bedouin leaving his camel without tying it. He asked the
Bedouin, "Why don't you tie down your camel?"
The Bedouin answered, "I placed my trust in Allah."
At that, the Prophet, sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, said, "Tie
your camel and place your trust in Allah" - Tirmidhi

[Lessons from this hadith] Placing trust in Allah means doing
everything that is necessary for success! <--that's a big one!

I believe this should also apply to a woman who wants to marry a certain man. If she wants to marry him, she should "tie him down" and then put her trust in Allah. In whatever means she is able to do that, whether it be proposing to him directly or indirectly, as long as the methods are permissible in Islam.

And Allah knows best.


Thank You sis! You said it right.

Many go unmarried do to the fact that they don't take the means.

Too many households are full of unmarried ladies do to cultural barriers.
It's sad.

spana3rabia
04-07-2007, 07:19 PM
bismillah.
very interesting topic. for me it would be the man proposing. but really i haven't heard if anything is wrong in the sister doing it first, though in the halaal way. i think it depends on the situation. for instance, different guys have been coming to this sister but she doesn't see what she wants in them, but there is this brother who's all she's been asking for but he isn't coming.shouldn't she do the asking?
personally though i would never do that. i know it sounds a bit .......... but i guess i'm attached to some aspects of my culture which will have ABSOLUTELY none of that. anyways i think anyone caught up in this dillemma should do the right thing? if he is really worth it.
wa allahu'alam.


good point. Sometimes, we're brought up a certain way and its like, what, you want me to change what i've been doing all these years and do something completely different than everyone else around me? are you crazy? haha.

but for real, i WAS just thinking how big culture plays a role in our lives. We can't underestimate culture. Some things never change.

However, Anybody can do it. Its not mission Impossible. But because of the way many of us were raised, many of us dont WANT to change. so thats where the problem lies...if there even is a problem...many dont think its a problem and some do. see what i mean. different people, different way of thinking.

Also I feel like alot of men expect alot from the sisters...even perhaps to a point...unrealistic?

I don't think its realistic to fear bold women. Yes, proposing to a brother may be bold...something not done...but I think its something to be admired. ESPECIALLY if she did it within Islamic bounds and is attaining something dignified and precious....this something is, oh well, its just half of our deen...no biggie...

Women gots to be smart though. If you want something, put your trust in Allah, choose the method that will get you what you want....with the least obstacles involved[although there will always be obstacles in everything we do in this dunya]

WAllahu A'lam.

spana3rabia
04-07-2007, 07:34 PM
Women gots to be smart though. If you want something, put your trust in Allah, choose the method that will get you what you want....with the least obstacles involved[although there will always be obstacles in everything we do in this dunya]

WAllahu A'lam.

just to expand on my previous point.

if a sistah knows that the family of this guy that shes interested in does not approve of a certain method over the other,[they look down upon direct proposal but not on proposal thru an intermediary], then find an intermediary to suggest yourself to the other family and the prospective. You cant change their way of thinking, just do it the way they like to do it. It'll make things alot easier.

theres a saying about it...if you can't beat em..JOIN EM. [but really ur not joing them, just doing it their way. you have your own views and they have their own. hopefully all your viiews aren't opposing each other, then you may find yourself saying later on: houston we have a problem]

so becareful too, if alot of their views are opposing to your own...that could be a warning sign. Its not a biggie if they dont accept direct proposal or indirect proposal...it may be better for the sistah in any case...similarity breeds attraction?

Wallahu A'lam(dang i just have alot to say today, alhamdulillah) :P

Sirius1
04-07-2007, 07:42 PM
From the last thread, it seems that some brothers are curious as to why a woman would want to initiate a marriage proposal. Meaning…why would she want to take matters in her own hands?Here are a few more hypothesized reasons:

~{That hadith makes me wonder if the woman who proposed the Prophet (sa) truly did not have any choice...she could have sent a sahabi...or another woman, or maybe a little kid...wallahu alim}I am inclined to believe that, a woman who proposes directly has a gumption to her personlity...b/c out of all the choices available (Praying qiyam, making dua and waiting/expecting, or sending a 3rd person) she chooses the direct approach...maybe some women are just like that. All Khayr. Wallahu Alim.

~Some parents might simply not care about getting their kids married...and some maybe like...your choice is our choice! Make your choice.

Yet, another one...this one's real...

~My Dad's friend's wife's Dad believed that his daughters would get married when their 'time' comes, and hence didn't search for any potential 'grooms' for his daughters. Basically, the belief was, Allah will send the man when the time of marriage comes. I don't know how my dad's friend's wife's ended up marrying my dad's friend, but I think laxity on the parents' part can make a women want to search a man for herself. (lol...was that confusing?)

Wallahu Alim.

Umm Salma
04-07-2007, 10:02 PM
Thank You sis! You said it right.

Many go unmarried do to the fact that they don't take the means.

Too many households are full of unmarried ladies do to cultural barriers.
It's sad.
There was a hadith about the Prophet salAllahu 'alaihi wa sallam, where a woman walked up to him and proposed to him. Aishah radi Allahu anha saw this and covered her face in embarassment for the sister. The Prophet salAllahu alaihi wa sallam then told her that this woman was better than her because she desired goodness.

InshaAllah, I'll try to get the correct wording and the source for this hadith, but I thought it would show an important lesson. If a woman truly desired goodness for herself, she would seize it, no matter what. So if a woman sees a good man that will help her in her deen, she should take it for herself, even if it goes against the norms of the society.

Abu Hurayrah
04-09-2007, 10:30 PM
hmmm... direct proposal by man, for me. the shaykh discussed what can go wrong in a situation in which an intermediary proposes - what if the sister falls for the intermediary rather than who's actually proposing. might cause conflict in that relationship. i dont know, it seems like risky business. direct is always the way to go.Have the one relaying the message be the same gender as the one being proposed to. So, if you are proposing to a brother, send a brother (possibly through a sister), and vice-versa. Problem solved!

spana3rabia
04-09-2007, 10:54 PM
hmmm... direct proposal by man, for me. the shaykh discussed what can go wrong in a situation in which an intermediary proposes - what if the sister falls for the intermediary rather than who's actually proposing. might cause conflict in that relationship. i dont know, it seems like risky business. direct is always the way to go.
whoa whoa whoa, i never even considered the intermediary to be anonmahram male...

remember, family could be intermediary as well...if i'm not mistaken. You could still use them as the middle-person/people...or maybe you could still use a female thats related to the guy.

theres a ton of ways...i dont think we necessariyl have to resolve to using a nonmahram male for us females...UNLESS, if this intermediary that is a male, nonmahram reports back to the family or a mahram of the woman...then thatd be cool...

HopefulMuslimah
04-10-2007, 06:01 AM
Have the one relaying the message be the same gender as the one being proposed to. So, if you are proposing to a brother, send a brother (possibly through a sister), and vice-versa. Problem solved!
lol smart one
I was trying to solve it but that is a good one! :) just too quick for me

HopefulMuslimah
04-10-2007, 06:05 AM
whoa whoa whoa, i never even considered the intermediary to be anonmahram male...

remember, family could be intermediary as well...if i'm not mistaken. You could still use them as the middle-person/people...or maybe you could still use a female thats related to the guy.

theres a ton of ways...i dont think we necessariyl have to resolve to using a nonmahram male for us females...UNLESS, if this intermediary that is a male, nonmahram reports back to the family or a mahram of the woman...then thatd be cool...
man, isnt this whole thing just complicated! :)
well, it is for me;)

Abu Hurayrah
04-10-2007, 03:03 PM
Which brother voted?

Sirius1
04-10-2007, 03:05 PM
click on the poll numbers...

about 9 of them...if I'm counting it right...

Abu Hurayrah
04-10-2007, 03:08 PM
click on the poll numbers...

about 9 of them...if I'm counting it right...Oh my...it looked like more than nine. I had a good laugh at some of the brothers' answers.

spana3rabia
04-10-2007, 05:52 PM
man, isnt this whole thing just complicated! :)
well, it is for me;)

WORD.

--ANDjust for the record, my other post in reply to sis zubeida...i dont want it to be mistaken for rudeness[the three whoas] thats just how i express surprise. hehe.

Mehreen Khan
04-10-2007, 06:22 PM
direct proposal by the man...

Sarah Mushtaq
04-10-2007, 07:39 PM
I voted through an intermediary, meaning either way, I'd like my Daddy with me:)

Sirius1
04-14-2007, 05:29 PM
direct proposal by the man...Hmm...I forgot to make an explicit option for that.

Sirius1
04-14-2007, 05:32 PM
There was a hadith about the Prophet salAllahu 'alaihi wa sallam, where a woman walked up to him and proposed to him. Aishah radi Allahu anha saw this and covered her face in embarassment for the sister. The Prophet salAllahu alaihi wa sallam then told her that this woman was better than her because she desired goodness.

InshaAllah, I'll try to get the correct wording and the source for this hadith, but I thought it would show an important lesson. If a woman truly desired goodness for herself, she would seize it, no matter what. So if a woman sees a good man that will help her in her deen, she should take it for herself, even if it goes against the norms of the society.This is it, right?Volume 7, Book 62, Number 53:
Narrated Thabit Al-Banani:

I was with Anas while his daughter was present with him. Anas said, "A woman came to Allah's Apostle and presented herself to him, saying, 'O Allah's Apostle, have you any need for me (i.e. would you like to marry me)?' "Thereupon Anas's daughter said, "What a shameless lady she was ! Shame! Shame!" Anas said, "She was better than you; she had a liking for the Prophet so she presented herself for marriage to him.".

fsharifa
04-14-2007, 09:52 PM
Are we forgetting the Prophet Peace and be upon him was proposed to...where the culture was crazy and the barried gorls...but khadija RA proposed to him and he loved her alot...anyways...the point...either way it works for all of us..it depends on the situation...for example if there is a good brother it would not hurt to try i think...
(:

Sarah Mushtaq
04-15-2007, 09:01 AM
Hmm...I forgot to make an explicit option for that.
I think either way, through and intermediary, would've been good too:)

But Khayr InshaAllah, this thread is interesting!

fsharifa
04-15-2007, 10:02 AM
:) Well I guess it comes down to the situation and how every family handles this special occasion...and some might not be able to propose just get it arranged....and live with it... but something different works for everyone...

Monazza
04-16-2007, 10:35 AM
Definitely an interesting topic. My vote: I would say let the brother choose and handle all the proposing.
Ameen, Mercy J!

Sarah Mushtaq
04-16-2007, 05:06 PM
only brothers votes for 3rd option :)

LOL I saw that too:D

worried
05-21-2007, 12:31 AM
A sister proposes to you through someone, then you should realize that she's interested. It may not necessarily mean she wants to marry you but that she' like to consider it..ie talk. And in return, she is wanting you to consider her. Brothers whine about not being able to get married and the rejection process. Its amazing what some brothers have written. Its so judgemental to assume the girl is forward and not modest just if she inquires and goes through someone to start a dialogue (proper halal means).

Believe it or not brothers, sisters think about marriage and they'd like to marry someone they LIKE! So, you should get over the hunter and gatherer mentality and join us in this century. If you'd prefer to chase the girl, do the leg work, beg, grovel and swallow a possible rejection, then by all means decline them. Just don't whine about how "hard it is" later :p.

tasnia1989
07-10-2007, 10:17 AM
i think that the man proposing is the proper way for a couple to get married in the bliss. my opinion is that if the man does it then it seems more like a proposal.

Kisswah the Camel
07-21-2007, 09:53 PM
Proposals are important, and so is finding the right person. I heard about this site that I think is good and thought I should share it. It's [MOD.EDIT. NO OUTSIDE LINKS ALLOWED. SEE FORUM POLICIES] It has some sites where you fill out some info about your self and then they help find someone for you. I think it's really cool.

Kisswah the Camel
07-22-2007, 09:51 PM
Salams

I noticed that the link got censored from the forums. If you want to get the link from me, please email me using the contact info in the board.

Jazkullah Khair.

UmmAyub
07-26-2007, 10:49 AM
Generally speaking, I think it would depend on the character of the brother and the disposition of the sister. As in the case of Khadijah (RA) she saw outstanding qualities in the Prophet (PBUH) and through an intermediary proposed marriage. In a similar case I think that it would not be untoward for a sister to, through an intermediary, inquire about a brother.

My preference however is being pursued. Plus I way too shy. I would be soo goofy trying to inqire about someone, talk about a Bridget Jones moment. hahaha ;)

Sirius1
07-26-2007, 11:26 AM
Yup I said it, sisters enjoy the hunter gatherer game. They like to get hunted..they like making the guy work hard to get em, they wanna see him sweat and bleed (not bleed).Are you speaking on behalf of all sisters?

I'll take it more like a 'general' remark--though I'm not sure about the accuracy of the general statement as well. I think it requires a survey.

Sirius1
07-27-2007, 02:32 PM
We males have big egos; and if the brother is not deeni then that ego would take over him after marriage like the example the brother mentioned.
Males have big egos?…hmm…Yeah that does require a survey…


However, those of us who are new muslims, we take Islam for its originality and we follow the examples of those who were promised Jannah insha'Allah.This one also requires a survey.

I think how a woman's decides a man's worth is subjective. A single definition of a man's worthiness doesn't work for every woman.Considering the diversity of human nature, I think it is a pretty common sense statement…that doesn’t require a survey to be accurately answered. Also that was more a response to something that was mentioned than a confidently announced ‘reality’ (unlike ‘Yup I said it…”)

Brothers whine about not being able to get married and the rejection process.Okay this one does…like how many brothers had a hard time finding a spouse and how many of them actually whined about it.

Believe it or not brothers, sisters think about marriage and they'd like to marry someone they LIKE! So, you should get over the hunter and gatherer mentality and join us in this century.The first sentence, once again comes from common sense…its true for both brothers and sisters…they want to marry someone they LIKE.

Percentage of brothers having a hunter-gather mentality…requires a survey.

Something tells me a brother would be very flattered if a sister proposed to him directly...just thinking aloudLike the sister mentioned…she’s just thinking aloud…she’s not stating it as if its reality for all men…The statement has a very hypothetical tone as she is using words like ‘something tells me’ and ‘just thinking aloud’ (As compared to ‘Yup I said it…”)

Btw...Did you check this thread out? http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=19511

A close friend of mine proposed directly to her husband.. and alhumdulilah things worked out well.. but when we were discussing this topic she told me that whenever they get into arguments and he gets frustrated he always yells, " keep in mind that it is YOU who wanted to marry me, not the other way around." I addressed this one in one of my previous posts. I think the quoted statements are of people who are speaking from observations/experience…and perhaps those remarks are applicable to some brothers. Perhaps your statement about women loving ‘the chase’ is true for some sisters as well…but when it's said so confidently like ‘Yup I said it…sisters enjoy the hunter gatherer game.’ it sounds as if its based on some authentic evidence or something which applies to all females (I don't think it does).

Anyways, thank you for the clarification.

You are welcome to point out anything on this thread that you thought was inaccurate about men. :)

Jazakallah Khair

msg4u
08-05-2007, 09:09 AM
As Salaamu Alikum..not all sisters are hunter gatherer..but I think there's a reason to that. It probbaly would be that because of lack of trusts between guys and them..the sisters are confused who would actually want to marry them and we are(so are guys) very sensitive to take the HUGE step of marriage.. I think guys need to make things CLEAR too and not be like 'lemme see wat she says.'..

If a woman propose to a man, why is it said 'that woman has no haya..'? Mostly brothers don't notice you to propose and specially the 'not so beautiful ones'.. So should we just wait for prince charm to come and rescue us? ha ha ha.. I think woman should let the prince know that cinderalaS can't wait till she's old.. and ask the prince brother in halal manner and pray to Allah (swt) to see wat happens..Allahu'Alim

Ma'Salaama..

msg4u
08-05-2007, 09:21 AM
A personal concern:

A girl likes a brother for marriage. Her parents agrees. But the parents can't propose to the guy because the GIRL's brother says "but My sister is not good enough for him. He's tall and handsome mash'Allah and oviously he would want a beautiful wife where my sister is not so that."

This is a hard matter..

Sisters, what do you do in this situation?

Sirius1
08-05-2007, 01:37 PM
A personal concern:

A girl likes a brother for marriage. Her parents agrees. But the parents can't propose to the guy because the GIRL's brother says "but My sister is not good enough for him. He's tall and handsome mash'Allah and oviously he would want a beautiful wife where my sister is not so that."

This is a hard matter...

Sisters, what do you do in this situation?
What would I do? Hmm...lets see...

I would tell my brother to not worry about it. I would tell him "..'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder'...Just because I don't measure up to your beauty standards doesn't mean I won't measure up to his.'"

Also, if the girl really likes the guy then I would push the parents to pray istikhara and propose.

If the guy accepts, then alhamdulillah.

If not, then if not him then inshaAllah someone better than him.

Sirius1
08-05-2007, 01:48 PM
If Allah forbid, the parents still don't feel courageous enough to propose...then 'Doing it yourself!' (ofcourse in a halaal manner) seems like a good option...inshaAllah...don't forget to pray Istikhara though. :)

Or maybe even ask the parents to stand by the girl when she is making the move...

Just some ideas...:)

msg4u
08-05-2007, 08:18 PM
hehehe.. Jazack'Allah khayr for your ideas.

Wa Salaam..

Raagsan
02-13-2008, 01:59 PM
I would prefer if the brother proposed. He is the "man" and it is his job to propose. A woman has a place in our religion and culture. At least that is how I was raised, that am respectful and should be proud and let the brother do all the hard work. It is like never put yourself down and propose to a man, where is your pride n your dignity...and all that lol. Lets not even talk about proposing, once he proposed try to play " hard to get" card lol bt don't go too far just a bit to make him see that you are worth all the hard work :)

nihma333
02-13-2008, 04:41 PM
The discussion about what a sister is to do when she gains an attraction for a man reminded me of this hadith, as quoted from Shaykh Muhammad's DiscoverU program:

One day Allah's Messenger, sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, noticed a
Bedouin leaving his camel without tying it. He asked the
Bedouin, "Why don't you tie down your camel?"
The Bedouin answered, "I placed my trust in Allah."
At that, the Prophet, sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, said, "Tie
your camel and place your trust in Allah" - Tirmidhi

[Lessons from this hadith] Placing trust in Allah means doing
everything that is necessary for success! <--that's a big one!

I believe this should also apply to a woman who wants to marry a certain man. If she wants to marry him, she should "tie him down" and then put her trust in Allah. In whatever means she is able to do that, whether it be proposing to him directly or indirectly, as long as the methods are permissible in Islam.

And Allah knows best.WOW SubhanAllah, that is a very interesting interpretation on that hadith.... SubhanAllah.

I personally think that the person's culture needs to be taken into consideration. For some cultures a woman proposing just doesn't fly, and that may just deter a man and bring shame to the woman. Also if a woman is directly proposing to a man she has to be extremely careful as to how she goes about this, I personally don't recommend it at all. She should just have her wali take care of that for her or have sabr until she does get a suitable proposal.

"And He will provide for him sustenance from sources he never could imagine. And whoever relies and puts his trust in Allah, then Allah is Sufficient for him. For indeed Allah will accomplish His command; verily, Allah has set a proper measure for all things." (Surah Talaq 65:3)

Al-Hayaa
02-13-2008, 07:15 PM
Jazakillahu khayr nimah333 for th reminder of surah Talaq, very powerful ayah, sadaq Allah. I always have this believe that wen it comes to marriage, i'll leave to Allah. I wont go lookin, jus tawakall if the mr right happens to com or not! bout proposing to men...i personally wudnt cos im not realy fuzzy if i'll or not, so it all has to com 4rm him. and yh, most cultures dont like that idea but ther r lots of things that our cultures dont like nway, like a girl marrying a brother younger than her, even by a few months...its considered embarrising! Honestly!

Khadijah (ra) was much older and married the Prophet, sallalahu 3aleyhi wsalam n if im nt wrong, she proposed to him (wel indirectly) as well.

But the impt question still remains...despite our cultures, or beliefs of women not proposing to men, wud u allow/encourage/support your daughter to propose a man of her 'dreams'? Or wud you stick to cultures n that............?!

Interesting to c wht most of you think inshallah....

fee amanillah

Raagsan
02-13-2008, 11:25 PM
I don't have a daughter nor am I married, bt hypothetically speaking if I had a daughter and she wanted to propose to the guy of her dreams, by all means she could go for it . I don't believe in deciding for others, it is really ultimately their choice. if she has the guts to do it lol hey go for it. But, i doubt if i had a daughter she would do it, since I would raise her just like my parents raised me. My parents are very cultured and they raised me in a way where I would know my place in our culture, where I would know that a girl does not propose under any circumstance, you sit back and let the man do it. So, I doubt any daughter of mine would do such thing ....bt if it comes to a point where she does it, am in no way going to stop her. If she will live with a rejection for instance, like some men just love to run after you, and when they see a girl proposing and all that they would just turn around and be like " whats wrong with this girl" like they would take the wrong idea of her. When in fact she could the most pious girl out there. I guess I have said enough lol.

to sum up my answer would be stick to your culture values, unless they contradict with what the Koran teaches.

I hope this finds you all in the best iiman and health

ws.wr.wb