I'm confused??

[RimzaAW]

AsSallamu Alaykum wa RahmatuAllahi wa Barakatuhu,

If you are confused, have a question, need something clarified from the class, have questions from your study session, or have a classic case of "I totally got it in class, but now that I think about it doesn't make sense anymore" .. post the above in this thread.

[RimzaAW]

Questions that came up in our study session:

One:
Evidence of the Authority of the Sunnah from Hadeeth
"There will be a man to whom my Hadeeth will reach him, while he is sitting comfortably [in another narration: with a full stomach], and he will say, 'Between me and you is the book of Allah, whatever we find in it that is Halal we will make it Halal, and whatever we find in it Haram we will make it Haram, and whatever the Messenger of Allah has made Haram is as if Allah has made it Haram.'" [at-Tirmidhi]

This hadeeth is confirming the sunnah, meaning that the person who was sitting comfortably was still okay because he did not change the halal and haram, but in the explanation during class we learned that these people are following their desires and the dunya. If someone could explain this further.

Two:
Abu Hurayrah (radhi Allahu 'anhu) said that no one had more hadeeth than him except for Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al 'Aas (radhi Allahu 'anhu), because Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al 'Aas (radhi Allahu 'anhu) used to write them.

However Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al 'Aas (radhi Allahu 'anhu) is not found on the list of top 7 narrators in the binder. If someone could explain this further as well.

Three:
The switching of the terms, also mentioned in the follwing post:http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=21709 (http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=21709)

Jazak-Allahu Khairan.

[Teena]

Assalamu Alaikom, I think the hadith is more like this:

"There will be a man to whom my Hadeeth will reach him, while he is sitting comfortably [in another narration: with a full stomach], and he will say, 'Between me and you is the book of Allah, whatever we find in it that is Halal we will make it Halal, and whatever we find in it Haram we will make it Haram', and whatever the Messenger of Allah has made Haram is as if Allah has made it Haram." [at-Tirmidhi]

Notice I changed the placement of the inside quotations. You have to differentiate between what was said by the man sitting comfortably and what are the words of the Prophet (sallallahu alleihi wa sallam). If I have misunderstood, then please correct me.

As for your second question, wasn't Abu Hurayra referring to Abdullah ibn Abbas? He is on the list, just not before Abu Hurayra, so I don't know for sure.

As for your other question, I'm still waiting for the answer to that one as well. Teena

[UmmSarah]

Assalamu Alaikom, I think the hadith is more like this:

"There will be a man to whom my Hadeeth will reach him, while he is sitting comfortably [in another narration: with a full stomach], and he will say, 'Between me and you is the book of Allah, whatever we find in it that is Halal we will make it Halal, and whatever we find in it Haram we will make it Haram', and whatever the Messenger of Allah has made Haram is as if Allah has made it Haram." [at-Tirmidhi]

Notice I changed the placement of the inside quotations. You have to differentiate between what was said by the man sitting comfortably and what are the words of the Prophet (sallallahu alleihi wa sallam). If I have misunderstood, then please correct me.

As for your second question, wasn't Abu Hurayra referring to Abdullah ibn Abbas? He is on the list, just not before Abu Hurayra, so I don't know for sure.

As for your other question, I'm still waiting for the answer to that one as well. Teena Oh, how I wish I could've attended! I've been keeping up with all the posts about the class. I was hoping more people who took the class would be on here discussing the material. Jazaakumullaah khair, Teena and Raaw. I enjoy your questions and comments.

I think Teena answered the first question perfectly. As for the second, I have no idea, but I guess I could try to research that. And for the third question, I tried to look it up but didn't seem to find much. In Arabic the word "riwaayah" means narration and the word "diraayah" refers to a kind of understanding.

[RimzaAW]

WaAlaykum AsSallam wa RahmatuAllahi wa Barakatuhu,

Jazak-Allahu Khiaran, Teena! That helps clarify the first question (The quotations need to be changed in the binder).

As for question 2, I looked it up, from what I came across it is Abdullah Ibn Amr ibn Al Aas (RadiAllahu anhu) waAllahu Alam:

Talking about Abu Hurairah (RadiAllahu Anhu): He used to say about himself, "No one among the companions of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) narrates about him more than I do except `Abd Allah Ibn Amr Ibn Al-'Aas. He used to write, but I didn't."

Another related hadeeth that suggests it may have been Abdullah Ibn Amr ibn Al Aas (RadiAllahu Anhu):
Abdullah ibn Amr (Radi Allahu Anhu) reports: "I used to write everything I heard from the Messenger (Sallalahu alahi wa sallam) as I wanted to preserve it. The Quraish forbade me, saying: 'Do you write everything that you hear [from him] and the Messenger is a human being who sometimes speaks in anger and joy?' [i.e. he may say something under the influence of emotions that may not be worth writing.] So I stopped. Then I mentioned this to the Messenger (Sallalahu alahi wa sallam). He pointed with his fingers to his mouth and said: "Write! By the One in Whose Hands is my life! Nothing proceeds from here except the truth." - Abu Dawood, 3161

[Teena]

Assalamu Alaikom, okay. Well, I guess we'll have to wait for the Sheikh to answer why he's not on the list insha'Allah because I have no idea. Teena

[*Samira*]

Assalamu aleykum

The way i understood it is that Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Aas {radhiyallahu 'anhu} recorded the ahadeeth but did not narrate as much as Abu Hurayrah {radhiyallahu 'anhu}. Wallahu A'lam

Notice also the list is for the top narrators -- that may explain why his name is not on it!

[Nazia Awan]

Assalaamu'alaikum,

Also, can anyone explain the meaning of Abu Hanifah's opinion being that all people who narrate hadeeth are trustworthy (according to the hadeeth of the Prophet sal Allahu 'alayhi wasallam)....because Abu Hanifah was in an area rife with fabricated hadeeth, and he knew it...he even looked over ahadeeth for fear that they were affected by the fitnah.

Can anyone reconcile this?

[th/suraya]

Yes, I was wondering about that^. I have some other questions and would appreciate some help:

1. When we learned about Hadith Qudsi, there were two opinions on how it differs from the Quran:

Opinion 1: The hadith's MEANING is from Allah and the Prophet (sal Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) put it in his own words.
Opinion 2: It is the word of ALlah in the phrase and the meaning, and it only differs because a) the specific mentioned reward for the Quran isn't given for reading the hadith, b) Qudsi ahadeeth can't be read in Prayer, c) they don't have to be mutawatir like the ayahs of the Quran, and d) they can be something revealed to the Prophet through dreams and other means while the Quran is always through Jibreel.

Which opinion is correct?

2. On page 25, Al-Munawalah is written as one of the methods of transmission of hadeeth. It is defined as "Handing over of narration."

What exactly does that mean?

[RimzaAW]

1. When we learned about Hadith Qudsi, there were two opinions on how it differs from the Quran:

Opinion 1: The hadith's MEANING is from Allah and the Prophet (sal Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) put it in his own words.
Opinion 2: It is the word of ALlah in the phrase and the meaning, and it only differs because a) the specific mentioned reward for the Quran isn't given for reading the hadith, b) Qudsi ahadeeth can't be read in Prayer, c) they don't have to be mutawatir like the ayahs of the Quran, and d) they can be something revealed to the Prophet through dreams and other means while the Quran is always through Jibreel.

Which opinion is correct?Some scholars are critical of opinion 1 because when the Prophet (sal Allahu Alayhi wa sallam) says that Allah says something, it is a bit odd to say this saying is only in the meaning. From this the stronger opinion is opinion 2.

2. On page 25, Al-Munawalah is written as one of the methods of transmission of hadeeth. It is defined as "Handing over of narration."

What exactly does that mean?It means handing over the narration to the student.

WaAllahu Alam

[Abdullah~]

Two:
Abu Hurayrah (radhi Allahu 'anhu) said that no one had more hadeeth than him except for Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al 'Aas (radhi Allahu 'anhu), because Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al 'Aas (radhi Allahu 'anhu) used to write them.

However Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al 'Aas (radhi Allahu 'anhu) is not found on the list of top 7 narrators in the binder. If someone could explain this further as well.
.Bismillah
Asalamu alaykum,

Alhamdullilah, this came up in seminar today. The reason why is that after the death of Rasool'Allah sal Allahu alayhi was salaam Abdullah ibn Amr Ibn Al'Aas RA went out to jihad in Persia and Ash'Sham, so he was not around to teach, while Abu Hurayrah RA was. I have more detailed notes on this and insha'Allah if I get to them I will edit this later to write more specific things shaykh Abdulbary said today. Wallahu Allam.

[RimzaAW]

Bismillah
Asalamu alaykum,

Alhamdullilah, this came up in seminar today. The reason why is that after the death of Rasool'Allah sal Allahu alayhi was salaam Abdullah ibn Amr Ibn Al'Aas RA went out to jihad in Persia and Ash'Sham, so he was not around to teach, while Abu Hurayrah RA was. I have more detailed notes on this and insha'Allah if I get to them I will edit this later to write more specific things shaykh Abdulbary said today. Wallahu Allam.
WaAlaykum AsSallam wa RahmatuAllahi wa Barakatuhu,

This helps clarify it more completely in addition to what sister Samira posted. May Allah reward both of you, Jazak-Allahu Khairan.

Please add the details whenever you have the time.

[zuhair.shaath]

Are we certain that it was Abdullah Ibn Al-As or Abdullah Ibn Umar.

[Umm_Qaylah]

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaah,
Are we certain that it was Abdullah Ibn Al-As or Abdullah Ibn Umar.
It was 'Abdullah Ibnu 'Amr Ibn Al'Aas (RadiAllaahu Anhu).

Was-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaah.

[Nazia Awan]

How many types of marfu' are there? In the notes that I'm studying from, the person put three (haqeeqah, hukman, and indirect) but I have a feeling that indirect and hukman are the same thing that they accidentally put as 2 separate things.

[Nazia Awan]

Ok, what's the difference between a mawqoof hadeeth and an athar?

And why don't all mawqoof hadeeth just become marfu' hukman? What's the difference between them?

[th/suraya]

How many types of marfu' are there? In the notes that I'm studying from, the person put three (haqeeqah, hukman, and indirect) but I have a feeling that indirect and hukman are the same thing that they accidentally put as 2 separate things.I think you're right. I have written that there are two: Marfu Haqeeqah (which is the actual words of the Prophet, sal Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and Marfu Hukman (which would be indirect since it is attributed to the Prophet sal Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

[UmmSarah]

Ok, what's the difference between a mawqoof hadeeth and an athar?


My understanding:

With terms, you kind of have to see how different scholars use them.

In some books they might use the word athar to refer to a mawqof ahaadeeth. Other scholars may use the term athar differently.

Wallaahu a'lam.

[UmmSarah]

And why don't all mawqoof hadeeth just become marfu' hukman? What's the difference between them?
What I kind of gathered from the notes you sent me is that it depends on what the sahaabi is saying. If it's something about the unseen or something that could only have come from Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) then it would be marfoo' hukman, but if it could be something that was from the sahaabi's ijtihaad then it wouldn't be? This is just totally a guess based on the notes I read.

[UmmSarah]

I think you're right. I have written that there are two: Marfu Haqeeqah (which is the actual words of the Prophet, sal Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and Marfu Hukman (which would be indirect since it is attributed to the Prophet sal Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam).
I was thinking they should be two, too. :)

[Abdullah~]

Asalamu alaykum,

As a side not to the first question, there is also apparently another source of the hadith since the one in the binder is from Tirmidhi. You can see the one below on the Chain of Command description page at the Almaghrib website, Shaykh Abdulbary did mention some other narrations:

"I have indeed been given the Qur'an and something similar to it besides it. Yet, the time will come when a man leaning on his couch will say, "Follow the Qur'an only; what you find in it as halal, take it as halal, and what you find in it as haram, take it as haram." But what the Messenger of Allah has forbidden is like what Allah has forbidden."
(Hadith from the collections of Abu Dawud and Darimi. Narrated by AlMiqdam bin Ma'di Karib)

[sunnih]

Assalaamu'alaikum,

Also, can anyone explain the meaning of Abu Hanifah's opinion being that all people who narrate hadeeth are trustworthy (according to the hadeeth of the Prophet sal Allahu 'alayhi wasallam)....because Abu Hanifah was in an area rife with fabricated hadeeth, and he knew it...he even looked over ahadeeth for fear that they were affected by the fitnah.

Can anyone reconcile this?Assalamu alaikum.

It is a general saying with specific implications. He means one of the two things and Allah knows best:

1) The first stage of narration i.e the sahabah who narrated the ahadith. On this point there is concensus that all the sahabah are trustworthy therefore what they narrate attributing it to the Messenger is not afected by the name of the sahabi that narrates it. This as long as it is sure that the narration came from a sahabi.

2) Those transmiters of ahadith that are accepted by the muhadith scholars. These people are all trustworthy. The fact that Abu Hanifa was cotious about the ahadith that reached him is proof for this as he accepted the narrations that were established and left what he thought that was not established (in authenticity or in acting upon it). Therefore this is perfectly ok and there is no contradiction therein. We need to refere the general sayings to the more specific ones and thus all of it becomes clear. By joining between the words of Abu Hanifa and his action we find that he is in agreement with the rest of the hadith scholars on these issues and knowledge and understanding of hadith varies between the scholars but each tries his best. And sheikh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyah has mentioned that Abu Hanifa accepted making ablution with nabith although such goes against analogy. However he acted upon a hadith he deemed to be authentic. So he tried to follow the ahadith to his best, may Allah reward him aboundantly.

And Allah knows best.

[sunnih]

Ok, what's the difference between a mawqoof hadeeth and an athar?

And why don't all mawqoof hadeeth just become marfu' hukman? What's the difference between them?Assalamu alaikum.

Generally, athar may take the same meaning as the hadith but also it might take the meaning of transmition from a sahabi or a tabii.

The mawqoof is in reference of a sahabi attributing the matn to the Prophet. The narration of the sahabi may be in relation of what he narrates from the Prophet or not.

If he narrates in relation to the Prophet than it could be Mawqoof or due to some other factors it may be raised to marfoo such as the companion saying "We were forbidden...." and other expressions like these.

If he says something that is not linked neccessary to the Prophet whether directly or by indications or in case it is known to be the judgement (ijtihad) of the sahabi then it is athar of that sahabi.

The same goes for the tabii as well in general.

And Allah knows best.

[Nazia Awan]

Okkkay, I think I get it. JazakAllah khair sunnih!

[Nazia Awan]

Can someone give an example of the taraf in a hadeeth?

[Nazia Awan]

The notes say that certain maqtu hadeeth are accepted as proof in the Shari'ah and they are called marasil. What are the conditions of marasil that make them unique from other maqtu hadeeth in that they are accepted as proof?

[Sameera]

Can someone give an example of the taraf in a hadeeth?In my notes from the class, I have written that the taraf is used to refer to the hadeeth in a shortened form. For example, saying: the hadeeth about the three men in the cave.

wAllahu 'Alim

[th/suraya]

In my notes from the class, I have written that the taraf is used to refer to the hadeeth in a shortened form. For example, saying: the hadeeth about the three men in the cave.

wAllahu 'AlimAccording to the binder's definition, the taraf is "The part, or the beginning of the sentence, of the text which refers to the sayings, actions, or characteristics of the Prophet (sal Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam), or his concurrence with someone else's action." So now I'm confused about your definition, Sameera. I had always thought the following hadith had a good example of the taraf, but now I'm not sure since the definition says it describes the PROPHET'S actions (etc), and this hadith discusses the angel's.

"On the authority of Omar, who said:

One day while we were sitting with the messenger of Allah there appeared before us a man whose clothes were exceedingly white and whose hair was exceedingly black; no signs of journeying were to be seen on him and none of us knew him. He walked up and sat down by the prophet. Resting his knees against his and placing the palms of his hands on his thighs, he said:"O Muhammed, tell me about Islam". The messenger of Allah said: "Islam is to testify that there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is the messenger of Allah, to perform the prayers, to pay the zakat, to fast in Ramadhan, and to make the pilgrimage to the House if you are able to do so." He said:"You have spoken rightly", and we were amazed at him asking him and saying that he had spoken rightly. He said: "Then tell me about eman."He said:"It is to believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and to believe in divine destiny, both the good and the evil thereof." He said:"You have spoken rightly". He said: " Then tell me about ehsan." He said: "It is to worship Allah as though you are seeing Him, and while you see Him not yet truly He sees you". He said: "Then tell me about the Hour". He said: "The one questioned about it knows no better than the questioner." He said: "Then tell me about its signs." He said: "That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and that you will see the barefooted, naked, destitute herdsman competing in constructing lofty buildings." Then he took himself off and I stayed for a time. Then he said: "O Omar, do you know who the questioner was?" I said: "Allah and His messenger know best". He said: "He was Jebreel (Gabriel), who came to you to teach you your religion." [Narrated by Muslim]

Can someone let me know if this is a valid example?

[Teena]

In my notes from the class, I have written that the taraf is used to refer to the hadeeth in a shortened form. For example, saying: the hadeeth about the three men in the cave.

wAllahu 'AlimThat's how I understood it.