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View Full Version : Lust = Love -*-Zulekha’s Case in Question-*-


Sirius1
09-21-2007, 08:41 PM
The following verse is mentioned in the Quran:

And certain women in the city said, 'The wife of Aziz allures the hearts of her young boy. No doubt, his love has deepened in her heart. We find her infatuated with love openly.
~Surah Yusuf –Verse 30~

In the story of Yusuf (as), it appears that Zulekha (Aziz’s wife) fell for Yusuf (as) because of his physical beauty. Her desire for him (as), in the verse quoted above is being referred to as love (as opposed to lust) even though its origin had physical (material) basis.

So my question is, why is there a distinction drawn between love and lust even though such a distinction is not apparent in Yusuf’s (as) story? Is this a translation issue? Also, why do some scholars say that pre-marital love isn’t really love…it’s merely lust (i.e. something of insignificant value)—even though pre-marital love, in many cases is similar in nature to Zulekha’s desire?

An answer will be appreciated.

Jazakallah Khair!

MSalah
09-21-2007, 11:23 PM
As salaamu aleykum

I thought I throw this into the mix...these are the english translations of different authors on Surah Yusuf Verse 30. (I plucked this from a website, I don't know how accurate their info is)

-------------------------
Muhammad Muhsin Khan writes:
"And women in the city said: "The wife of Al-'Aziz is seeking to seduce her (slave) young man, indeed she loves him violently; verily we see her in plain error."

Yusuf Ali writes:
"Ladies said in the City: "The wife of the (great) 'Aziz is seeking to seduce her slave from his (true) self: Truly hath he inspired her with violent love: we see she is evidently going astray."

Pickthal writes:
"And women in the city said: The ruler's wife is asking of her slave-boy an ill-deed. Indeed he has smitten her to the heart with love. We behold her in plain aberration."

Shakir writes:
"And women in the city said: The chiefs wife seeks her slave to yield himself (to her), surely he has affected her deeply with (his) love; most surely we see her in manifest error."

Sahih International writes:
"And women in the city said, "The wife of al-'Azeez is seeking to seduce her slave boy; he has impassioned her with love. Indeed, we see her [to be] in clear error."

Sirius1
09-21-2007, 11:30 PM
Jazakallah khair for posting that brother.

Its interesting to see...all of the translators (the ones quoted here) are calling it love.

eternalmuslimah
09-22-2007, 12:13 AM
As salaamu aleykum

I thought I throw this into the mix...these are the english translations of different authors on Surah Yusuf Verse 30. (I plucked this from a website, I don't know how accurate their info is)

-------------------------
Muhammad Muhsin Khan writes:
"And women in the city said: "The wife of Al-'Aziz is seeking to seduce her (slave) young man, indeed she loves him violently; verily we see her in plain error."


the translation that i have is by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali & Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan and it says the same

Very good question to be raised though masha'Allah

Sirius1
09-24-2007, 11:49 AM
Sooo...Any knowledgeable person want to answer this question?

Shaykh Yaser B.?
Anyone (knowledgeable)?

jalalzia
09-24-2007, 02:15 PM
as salaamu 'alaykum.
please note
Al Hilali& Muhsin Khan : "she LOVES him VIOLENTLY"
Abdullah Yusuf Ali : "VIOLENT LOVE"
Saheeh International : "IMPASSIONED her with LOVE"

Sirius1
09-25-2007, 07:02 PM
as salaamu 'alaykum.
please note
Al Hilali& Muhsin Khan : "she LOVES him VIOLENTLY"
Abdullah Yusuf Ali : "VIOLENT LOVE"
Saheeh International : "IMPASSIONED her with LOVE"Walaykum as-salaam

The ayahs are saying she LOVED him...whatever kind it may be.

Its not like she had intentions to physically abuse him.

RandomDudette
10-01-2007, 09:59 PM
As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,

Maybe it was called love because he lived with them for a while, so besides just wanting him physically, she knew about his good qualities and truly *loved* him for that?

Allahu a'lam.

Sirius1
10-02-2007, 12:08 PM
As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,

Maybe it was called love because he lived with them for a while, so besides just wanting him physically, she knew about his good qualities and truly *loved* him for that?

Allahu a'lam.Walaikum as-salaam wa rahamtullahi wa barakatuh,

Excellent point. Jazakallah for mentioning that.

If we look at the following ayah it doesn't seem to suggest that she wanted him for his good qualities:

So when she heard of their accusation, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them; she gave each one of them a knife (to cut the foodstuff with), and she said [(to Yusuf (Joseph)]: "Come out before them." Then, when they saw him, they exalted him (at his beauty) and (in their astonishment) cut their hands. They said: "How perfect is Allah (or Allah forbid)! No man is this! This is none other than a noble angel!"
Surah Yusuf--Verse 31

Now, why would she be inviting all these women to present him to them. How would they be able to judge his character (as soon as they see him) to an extent that would make them cut their hands? (Rhetorical Q)

Sirius1
10-02-2007, 12:10 PM
As as side point: The arabic version of verse 30 mentions the word 'Hubb'

Ibrahim ibnImran
10-02-2007, 02:53 PM
I have a question about this question.

Is there another word in the Classical Arabic language besides hubb, that could be used to describe lustful desire?

Meaning, could the word "hubb"/"hubban" have more than one connotation, depending on the phrase in which it's used?

Just because this distinction is made in the English language, does that mean it's the same in other languages? For example, in Urdu?



This was originally a huge post, but I deleted it all, because I was afraid it was getting too complicated and it wouldn't really make too much sense to most people.



on a side note: a hadith in bukhari states that Yusuf (A) was "given half of the beauty"

*half of the beauty- does this mean that out of all the beauty ordained to be spread out among the human race, up until the Day of Judgment, Yusuf (A) was given half?

RandomDudette
10-02-2007, 10:16 PM
As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,

If you listen to Sheikh Anwar al-Awlaki's series on the Lives of the Prophets ('alaihumus-salaam), he explains about her inviting the other women over... I'm afraid I don't remember the exact details, but it's there.
IbnImran, your question is also answered in that same lecture.

Sirius1
10-04-2007, 12:10 PM
*half of the beauty- does this mean that out of all the beauty ordained to be spread out among the human race, up until the Day of Judgment, Yusuf (A) was given half?Al-Awlaqi says that the scholars interpreted it two different ways:

Half the beauty of the world, I suppose that satisfies your definition of ‘half the beauty of the human race’
Half the beauty of Adam (as). The explanation given for this was since Allah had created Adam (as) with His own hands, he (Adam) would represent the epitome of Allah’s creation.
As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,

If you listen to Sheikh Anwar al-Awlaki's series on the Lives of the Prophets ('alaihumus-salaam), he explains about her inviting the other women over... I'm afraid I don't remember the exact details, but it's there. Walaikum as salaam warahmatullahi wa barakatuh,

Actually that was not a real Q. It was something for you to think about. :D

However, I did replay part of his lecture last night. To my understanding she was appealed to his beauty as she gathered all these women to SHOW Yusuf (as) to them.

Its interesting though how he (Sh. Al-Awalqi) was saying that after all these women had looked at Yusuf (as) they started pressuring him to give in to Zulekha’s demand. Makes one wonder…why would they want to pressure some man to give in to some other woman when they, themselves found him 'perfect'?! I guess they were not struck with his *love* like Zulekha was. Anyways, I suppose that is a different topic.

Sirius1
10-04-2007, 12:16 PM
Getting back to the original questions and this one...

Is there another word in the Classical Arabic language besides hubb, that could be used to describe lustful desire?
Meaning, could the word "hubb"/"hubban" have more than one connotation, depending on the phrase in which it's used?
Just because this distinction is made in the English language, does that mean it's the same in other languages? For example, in Urdu?Any linguistics people want to give them a stab?

RandomDudette
10-04-2007, 01:05 PM
Wa 'alaikumus-salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,

Haha, all right... clearly, I'm not that perceptive!
*Rolls eyes at self*

Sirius1
10-05-2007, 06:17 PM
...Side track...Your screen name is cool!http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon6.gif mashaAllah. Had to say it!

Okay...back on track!

RandomDudette
10-10-2007, 05:07 PM
Haha, jazakAllahu khair :D

hassanm
10-11-2007, 01:34 AM
The following verse is mentioned in the Quran:

And certain women in the city said, 'The wife of Aziz allures the hearts of her young boy. No doubt, his love has deepened in her heart. We find her infatuated with love openly.
~Surah Yusuf –Verse 30~

In the story of Yusuf (as), it appears that Zulekha (Aziz’s wife) fell for Yusuf (as) because of his physical beauty. Her desire for him (as), in the verse quoted above is being referred to as love (as opposed to lust) even though its origin had physical (material) basis.

So my question is, why is there a distinction drawn between love and lust even though such a distinction is not apparent in Yusuf’s (as) story? Is this a translation issue? Also, why do some scholars say that pre-marital love isn’t really love…it’s merely lust (i.e. something of insignificant value)—even though pre-marital love, in many cases is similar in nature to Zulekha’s desire?

An answer will be appreciated.

Jazakallah Khair!

Surah Yusuf:
[8] When they said: "Truly, Yûsuf (Joseph) and his brother (Benjamin) are dearer to our father than we, while we are a strong group. Really, our father is in a plain error."

Allah in this Ayah describing what brothers of Yusuf were saying.

Surah Yusuf:
[30] And women in the city said: "The wife of Al-'Azîz is seeking to seduce her (slave) young man, indeed she loves him violently; verily we see her in plain error."

Allah in this Ayah describing what women of the city were saying.

Its not Allah is saying these statements, Allah is describing to us statements of brothers and then the women of the city.

The part I made bold has reason, Sh Waleed Basyouni once (after reading this surah in prayer) explained the significance of these words and compared plotting/gossiping of women with men. Those women did not live with wife of Al-Aziz yet they are saying "they see", while brothers despited living in family, did not make such bold statement (seeing shows emphasis that they are very sure). So take the statement in this ayah as gossip of women not the reality necessarily.

Sirius1
10-11-2007, 11:45 AM
Surah Yusuf:
[8] When they said: "Truly, Yûsuf (Joseph) and his brother (Benjamin) are dearer to our father than we, while we are a strong group. Really, our father is in a plain error."

Allah in this Ayah describing what brothers of Yusuf were saying.

Surah Yusuf:
[30] And women in the city said: "The wife of Al-'Azîz is seeking to seduce her (slave) young man, indeed she loves him violently; verily we see her in plain error."

Allah in this Ayah describing what women of the city were saying.

Its not Allah is saying these statements, Allah is describing to us statements of brothers and then the women of the city.

The part I made bold has reason, Sh Waleed Basyouni once (after reading this surah in prayer) explained the significance of these words and compared plotting/gossiping of women with men. Those women did not live with wife of Al-Aziz yet they are saying "they see", while brothers despited living in family, did not make such bold statement (seeing shows emphasis that they are very sure). So take the statement in this ayah as gossip of women not the reality necessarily.Good point. I thought about that...but then I thought if it was purely gossip, without any reality, wouldn't Allah have corrected their statements by saying that Zulekha was not really 'in love'...what the women were saying was false? Why would an inaccurate AND uncorrected statement be a part of the Quran?

hassanm
10-11-2007, 08:10 PM
Good point. I thought about that...but then I thought if it was purely gossip, without any reality, wouldn't Allah have corrected their statements by saying that Zulekha was not really 'in love'...what the women were saying was false? Why would an inaccurate AND uncorrected statement be a part of the Quran?

Surah Yusuf continues:

[31] So when she heard of their accusation, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them; she gave each one of them a knife (to cut the foodstuff with), and she said ((to Yûsuf (Joseph)) "Come out before them." Then, when they saw him, they exalted him (at his beauty) and (in their astonishment) cut their hands. They said: "How perfect is Allâh (or Allâh forbid)! No man is this! This is none other than a noble angel!"

[32] She said: "This is he (the young man) about whom you did blame me, and I did seek to seduce him, but he refused. And now if he refuses to obey my order, he shall certainly be cast into prison, and will be one of those who are disgraced."

The wife of Al-Aziz corrected them in the story.

Sirius1
10-11-2007, 08:59 PM
Surah Yusuf:
[30] And women in the city said: "The wife of Al-'Azîz is seeking to seduce her (slave) young man, indeed she loves him violently; verily we see her in plain error."

Allah in this Ayah describing what women of the city were saying.

Its not Allah is saying these statements, Allah is describing to us statements of brothers and then the women of the city.

The part I made bold has reason, Sh Waleed Basyouni once (after reading this surah in prayer) explained the significance of these words and compared plotting/gossiping of women with men. Those women did not live with wife of Al-Aziz yet they are saying "they see", while brothers despited living in family, did not make such bold statement (seeing shows emphasis that they are very sure). So take the statement in this ayah as gossip of women not the reality necessarily.Reading the ayah in its context it seems like a metaphorical 'seeing'--not the visible (physical) kind of seeing. Please refer to the blue text below:

YUSUFALI: Ladies said in the City: "The wife of the (great) 'Aziz is seeking to seduce her slave from his (true) self: Truly hath he inspired her with violent love: we see she is evidently going astray."
PICKTHAL: And women in the city said: The ruler's wife is asking of her slave-boy an ill-deed. Indeed he has smitten her to the heart with love. We behold her in plain aberration.
SHAKIR: And women in the city said: The chiefs wife seeks her slave to yield himself (to her), surely he has affected her deeply with (his) love; most surely we see her in manifest error.
-----
As for her alleged 'love'...there is no significant variation in the translations with regards to that. All translations (that have been posted) describe it as love. Difference lies only in the adverbs and sentence structures that are being used to describe it. Even if we look at the Arabic text...it (the ayah) mentions the word "Hubb" which translates as love.

Sirius1
10-11-2007, 09:01 PM
Surah Yusuf continues:

[31] So when she heard of their accusation, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them; she gave each one of them a knife (to cut the foodstuff with), and she said ((to Yûsuf (Joseph)) "Come out before them." Then, when they saw him, they exalted him (at his beauty) and (in their astonishment) cut their hands. They said: "How perfect is Allâh (or Allâh forbid)! No man is this! This is none other than a noble angel!"

[32] She said: "This is he (the young man) about whom you did blame me, and I did seek to seduce him, but he refused. And now if he refuses to obey my order, he shall certainly be cast into prison, and will be one of those who are disgraced."

The wife of Al-Aziz corrected them in the story.I don't see any correction in those ayahs. Where is it? I mean what part...bold it, please.

Jazakallah

puffsugarpastry
10-15-2007, 03:32 AM
Good point. I thought about that...but then I thought if it was purely gossip, without any reality, wouldn't Allah have corrected their statements by saying that Zulekha was not really 'in love'...what the women were saying was false? Why would an inaccurate AND uncorrected statement be a part of the Quran?
The Quran only mentions things that are significant. If the Quran has already made it apparent that the love she had for him was due to his physical beauty, it does not need further clarify.

Hub can mean/imply more than one thing, but most people immediately translate it to "love", although there are definately different ways to interpret the meaning. If I like someone, I may tell them "Uhhibbuki", using the word hub, and at the same time, if my like for the person became love, i would still say "Uhhibbuki" because the word hub has more than 1 connotation. Depending on the context, one word can mean 5 different things. Most words do not have one concrete meaning.

Sirius1
10-15-2007, 10:05 PM
The Quran only mentions things that are significant. If the Quran has already made it apparent that the love she had for him was due to his physical beauty, it does not need further clarify.True.

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Its funny, how they (women of the city) "forgot" about the wrongness of Zulekha's deed after looking at Yusuf (as). They all started pressuring him to commit the 'ill-deed' after witnessing his physical beauty.
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I am sort of confused now...b/c, if Zulekha's desire was 'love' then what's lust? In a romantic context, are love and lust essentially the same thing?