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Stawf
02-14-2008, 09:13 AM
Bismillah,

Assalamualikum warahmatullah.



In the West after living 30 years of conjugal life under Islamic Sharia Law one of my sisters in Islam got divorce from her husband. The reason: her husband married another young sister in order to enjoy his YOUTH (!!!).
Having second wife is legally not possible in the West, so first have to go (!!!!).

Remember the wife has been serving (now she felt that way) the husband and children last 30 years as a practicing Muslim. She never worked outside of home, and she never thought about dealing with money. She knows if she wants she can gets half of her ex-husband’s properties (house, wealth, bank money) by using Western secular law, but she just wants the solution under Islamic law.

She only has daughters who are married. She does not want to get any financial help from her daughters, because she fears it may cause unhappiness in her daughters’ lives.

Another point to remember she never went outside last 30 years without emergencies. Now the situation is different. She does not want to take help from social welfares (from western society-by the way getting welfare is not easy now a days). Because she feels that is not a solution for a longer period of time. Working outside at that age without having proper English and job experiences is not easy for her (her work experiences are zero).

She just wants justice under Islamic Sharia Law. She got her mohorana ($500 ) from her ex-husband. Her ex-husband believed that he fulfilled his duty by giving her mohorana. The second wife enters to the furnished house and gets all rights over the first wife’s created households. Now since she is divorced, he does not have any responsibility about her. Question: is it her fault that she gets old and her husband just needs a young wife to fulfill his desire? Well, she knows her husband is allowed to marry more than one wife. But why divorced?

Remember another point: she does not have any male relatives (father, brothers or uncles in the West) who can support her in such situation.

Subahanallah, I have no answer, and I don’t know how to help my sister. She has high self-respect, and sound knowledge of Islam. Does anybody have any advice for her?? Please don’t say to be patience –patience is her vertue. She did not complain, or cried upon her calamity. She knows tests come from Allah (swt), and she have to deal her calamity with strong faith. She just wants her rights of Islam, nothing else.

Her question is: what kind of financial facilities a Muslim divorce sister can get in such a situation from her ex-husband under the Western social context?

T'air Ar R'ad
02-14-2008, 12:41 PM
If the facts are true and accurate as presented in this post, then the solution is to use the law of the land to get an equal settlement and avoid being wronged by them. This is just the wrong way of doing polyg. and misusing Islam.

Stawf
02-15-2008, 07:51 AM
If the facts are true and accurate as presented in this post, then the solution is to use the law of the land to get an equal settlement and avoid being wronged by them. This is just the wrong way of doing polyg. and misusing Islam.Bismillah,
Assalamualikum warahmatullah,
This kind of case is not only one----I have been in touch (trying to help, InshaAllah) with those sisters for a longer period of time. Alhamdulilallah.
In such a sitution, this sister needs to know is she allowed to use the law of land or not. Are you sure she can use the law of the land? Is it your opinion or from a scholar?
This sister loves to follow Islam 24/7 and she wants justice, not punishing her ex-husband.

Jazakallalh khyir

Samira
02-15-2008, 12:04 PM
Bismillah,

I advice the sister just to have sabrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, sabr is the only way!
We as humans can not judge a person, neither can we punish them, no matter how much we would like to punish them, it is all up to ALLAH.

It already happened, there is no need to get angry, and there is no need to misbehave, what do you get out of it??? Nothing.

People always think that by getting angry, or by trying to punish a person by their law, or their way, they can get things solved, but that is not the way.

People plan and Allah plans, and he is the Best planner of all, we should leave things that gives us stress in live up to Allah, and we should just have sabr, a human can never punish another human, that is soooooooooooo impossible, only Allah can punish his servants, and we think we can punish them but only Allah can do it, so leave up to Allah. That is what i would say, leave it up to the Lord of the heavens, only he can do it.

Stawf
02-15-2008, 12:27 PM
Please try to understand it is not what I say or what you say---it is about what Islam says. She asked for the solution through Islamic jurisdiction. I am not a scholar; neither can I give her advice. I have no answer. That is why I post this problem in here. As I say this is not a new case. Usually, in such situations (divorce or abuse sisters), other sisters take help from the welfare, and when they get their jobs, they start to work for themselves and for their children. Most of the sisters are young, they learn first and joint to the workforce in order to survive. Her case is different. Sabar is her virtue. It does not mean she should not ask for information which could help her.

Does any one really know what Islamic solution is in this case?



Jazakallah khyir

Nazia Awan
02-27-2008, 08:13 PM
What's wrong with following the law of the land?

In your case, why doesn't the sister consult a knowledgeable imam in her area who can give her a clear answer based on her individual circumstances?

Siraaj
02-28-2008, 06:00 PM
Having second wife is legally not possible in the West, so first have to go (!!!!).

Salaam alaykum Stawf,

This is not a fatwa, but I wanted to clear a misconception here about legality. What is illegal is to legally contract two marriage certificates with the state / government (which comes with government benefits and so forth).

For example, let's imagine that a Muslim man and woman get married in the masjid, but they don't take this to the county clerk's office and get a marriage certificate - are they married under the law of the country? They're not. Are they married under Allah's Law? Yes.

Now let's imagine this hypothetical Muslim man marries another woman in the masjid (or wherever), and does not get a marriage certificate for this marriage either - what's his legal status? According to the government, he's still single, and according to Islam, he has two wives.

What is illegal is to have two marriage contracts with the government. So if a person has one marriage contract with the government, the other wife is not legally recognized, but who cares about that anyway, when we say "married", we mean that which is recognized by Allah, and that is not illegal.

Siraaj

hibahmac
02-28-2008, 07:16 PM
Salaam alaykum Stawf,
Now let's imagine this hypothetical Muslim man marries another woman in the masjid (or wherever), and does not get a marriage certificate for this marriage either - what's his legal status? According to the government, he's still single, and according to Islam, he has two wives.
It would be even more important for the man to have his will/living trust done, because they'd get nothing if the man dies intestate (without a will). Even if the one of the wives is documented, the others need to be covered in the will/trust too, b/c they only wife documented under civil law would be awarded anything through probate.

Siraaj
02-28-2008, 08:08 PM
It would be even more important for the man to have his will/living trust done, because they'd get nothing if the man dies intestate (without a will). Even if the one of the wives is documented, the others need to be covered in the will/trust too, b/c they only wife documented under civil law would be awarded anything through probate.

True enough, but just so we're clear, it's not legally preventative - it just means wife number 2 needs to be aware of her islamic rights and have them enforced through the most effective channels, and marital status shouldn't prevent that from taking place, insha'Allah.

Siraaj

aaziz
03-10-2008, 10:46 PM
I am extremely serious when i say that she should let people know she's single and find someone else to re-marry... no matter how old she is...she still sounds a gem..

and inshallah she's sure to find someone... many widowers, divorcees don't wanna live alone either ya know...

the kids are just gonna have to understand that mom's life is hers and she can't stay alone...

Wouldn't this be the Islamic solution to her problem?

Ra77aal
03-17-2008, 09:11 PM
Salaam alaykum Stawf,

This is not a fatwa, but I wanted to clear a misconception here about legality. What is illegal is to legally contract two marriage certificates with the state / government (which comes with government benefits and so forth).

For example, let's imagine that a Muslim man and woman get married in the masjid, but they don't take this to the county clerk's office and get a marriage certificate - are they married under the law of the country? They're not. Are they married under Allah's Law? Yes.

Now let's imagine this hypothetical Muslim man marries another woman in the masjid (or wherever), and does not get a marriage certificate for this marriage either - what's his legal status? According to the government, he's still single, and according to Islam, he has two wives.

What is illegal is to have two marriage contracts with the government. So if a person has one marriage contract with the government, the other wife is not legally recognized, but who cares about that anyway, when we say "married", we mean that which is recognized by Allah, and that is not illegal.

Siraaj

Hmmm... I'm not sure what the purpose of the post is.. but i know this scenario causes lots of grief in muslim countries and many young people get led on based on this very point. Since we don't live under a shariah system, i would imagine that having the legal status is necessary for a marriage to be valid.

mahmoudm
03-18-2008, 09:32 AM
Salaam alaykum Stawf,

This is not a fatwa, but I wanted to clear a misconception here about legality. For example, let's imagine that a Muslim man and woman get married in the masjid, but they don't take this to the county clerk's office and get a marriage certificate - are they married under the law of the country? They're not. Are they married under Allah's Law? Yes.

Now let's imagine this hypothetical Muslim man marries another woman in the masjid (or wherever), and does not get a marriage certificate for this marriage either - what's his legal status? According to the government, he's still single, and according to Islam, he has two wives.

What is illegal is to have two marriage contracts with the government. So if a person has one marriage contract with the government, the other wife is not legally recognized, but who cares about that anyway, when we say "married", we mean that which is recognized by Allah, and that is not illegal.

SiraajAs-salamo alaycom,
Great point Br. Siraaj

In the West after living 30 years of conjugal life under Islamic Sharia Law one of my sisters in Islam got divorce from her husband. Remember another point: she does not have any male relatives (father, brothers or uncles in the West) who can support her in such situation.


Does she need any financial help?

Bineabble
03-19-2008, 04:19 PM
Go to court and take half his property, then take what you would need to support yourself . . . and return back the rest.

- B

Stawf
03-21-2008, 07:30 PM
Jazakallah khyir to all of you. By the grace of Allah (swt), she is doing well. I am not allowed to give any more information.

Siraaj
03-23-2008, 12:27 AM
Hmmm... I'm not sure what the purpose of the post is.. but i know this scenario causes lots of grief in muslim countries and many young people get led on based on this very point. Since we don't live under a shariah system, i would imagine that having the legal status is necessary for a marriage to be valid.

i've been studying this issue quite extensively for a good time now and I have yet to come across the madhab or fatwa that makes the nonmuslim state's recognition of a marriage contract either a pre-req or pillar of a marriage contract.

wallaahu a'lam

siraaj

Sally Mahmoud
03-25-2008, 07:48 AM
i've been studying this issue quite extensively for a good time now and I have yet to come across the madhab or fatwa that makes the nonmuslim state's recognition of a marriage contract either a pre-req or pillar of a marriage contract.

wallaahu a'lam

siraaj

So if a person has one marriage contract with the government, the other wife is not legally recognized, but who cares about that anyway, when we say "married", we mean that which is recognized by Allah, and that is not illegal.

Well I have never studied the issue- I suppose it would work in an islamic utopia, but i feel like it's dangerous advice to be giving especially without qualifying it. I'm not sure how much power islamic centers have but if the marraige is ended for whatever reason, and the brother just disappears.. I'm sure the woman would want to have the option of getting her rights through the legal system. Having the marriage not recognized by the state puts the woman in a weaker position.

So what's your advice in this situation?

Stawf
03-25-2008, 08:46 AM
Well I have never studied the issue- I suppose it would work in an islamic utopia, but i feel like it's dangerous advice to be giving especially without qualifying it. I'm not sure how much power islamic centers have but if the marraige is ended for whatever reason, and the brother just disappears.. I'm sure the woman would want to have the option of getting her rights through the legal system. Having the marriage not recognized by the state puts the woman in a weaker position.

So what's your advice in this situation?Excellent questions, jazakallah khyir --- unfortunately some of our Muslim brothers do disappear, they change provinces and marry again --- it is indeed a serious issue ---I would like to know your advice too.

Siraaj
03-25-2008, 06:25 PM
Well I have never studied the issue- I suppose it would work in an islamic utopia, but i feel like it's dangerous advice to be giving especially without qualifying it. I'm not sure how much power islamic centers have but if the marraige is ended for whatever reason, and the brother just disappears.. I'm sure the woman would want to have the option of getting her rights through the legal system. Having the marriage not recognized by the state puts the woman in a weaker position.

So what's your advice in this situation?

Good question.

From the sisters side, it is a risky proposition. The first thing I'd say is that the sister marries a brother who fears Allah subhaana wa ta'aala - I mean, really fears Him, someone who would not think twice of crossing the rights Allah subhaana wa ta'aala has given wives.

Secondly, the rights of that woman need to be clearly spelled out in the case of a divorce, and they both ought to be in agreement, depending on the circumstances, what rights the woman has in this type of arrangement.

Thirdly, if it were me, I'd make sure to get some collateral on the side in case things go south and the brother wasn't what he claimed he was or what people thought he was, so that one's full rights are taken in the end. For example, a higher than usual Mahr, shared ownership of a home, etc. Think of it as a pre-nup.

Lastly, I'd pray istikhaara and have the name and number of a good lawyer on speed dial before, during, and after marriage.

Siraaj

nihma333
03-25-2008, 08:00 PM
Thirdly, if it were me, I'd make sure to get some collateral on the side in case things go south and the brother wasn't what he claimed he was or what people thought he was, so that one's full rights are taken in the end. For example, a higher than usual Mahr, shared ownership of a home, etc. Think of it as a pre-nup.
Siraaj
I don't know that it's proper to neglect a clear sunnah, like having an easy mahr, for the sake of a "better sense of security", just incase the brother doesn't take accountability and responsibility. Also, it just doesn't seem healthy to go into marriage with all these "security blankets" and super precautionary measures for all those 'what ifs' because that implies a lack of trust, and that sounds like an automatic set-up for failure, Allahu Alim.

Sally Mahmoud
03-26-2008, 09:58 AM
I think sisters should stick to marrying brothers who won't have any problems with the marriage being legally recognized.

There's also the issue of fairness if only 1 of the wives is legally recognized, and Allah commands men to be fair to their wives, or stick to 1.

Siraaj
03-26-2008, 02:46 PM
I think sisters should stick to marrying brothers who won't have any problems with the marriage being legally recognized.

There's also the issue of fairness if only 1 of the wives is legally recognized, and Allah commands men to be fair to their wives, or stick to 1.

Well, I agree with your first point - if she can find a good husband who isn't married, that's probably better for her.

Regarding fairness, the fairness is in regards to what the husband provides from his means, not in regards to what the government provides.

Siraaj

Hala
03-26-2008, 02:54 PM
For brothers/sisters marrying reverts, I would assume getting legally married would be best. (especially if they come from a family on non-Muslims) This would ensure that when the spouse dies, legally, the other would have burial rights and other aspects that come into it, right? Or would they just write that into their will?

Siraaj
03-26-2008, 03:52 PM
For brothers/sisters marrying reverts, I would assume getting legally married would be best. (especially if they come from a family on non-Muslims) This would ensure that when the spouse dies, legally, the other would have burial rights and other aspects that come into it, right? Or would they just write that into their will?

You can basically give power of attorney to whoever you like, you just have to do it ahead of time. Same with inheritance - just have one made up according to your circumstances and likewise make sure your spouse does the same so that there's no craziness after the spouse's passing and this person and that person want their wealth (if they have any).

Siraaj

extempers
03-26-2008, 06:22 PM
Question: If we live in a country where we cannot legally have more than one wife, but Islamically we have two marriages, is it ok?

I mean, one wife will be recognized and have all economic and legal powers while the other does not. Can this be ignored and still have equal treatment of wives?

Siraaj
03-26-2008, 06:57 PM
Question: If we live in a country where we cannot legally have more than one wife, but Islamically we have two marriages, is it ok?

I mean, one wife will be recognized and have all economic and legal powers while the other does not. Can this be ignored and still have equal treatment of wives?

See my answer two posts above yours ;)

Siraaj

Sally Mahmoud
03-26-2008, 08:09 PM
the other wife is not legally recognized, but who cares about that anyway



From the sisters side, it is a risky proposition.





the fairness is in regards to what the husband provides from his means, not in regards to what the government provides.



If the husband has provided the first wife with the right of a legally recognized marraige, and what that comes with.. he ought to offer subsequent wives the same legal recognition. That's only fair.

This type of arrangement is very risky, and you never know what the future holds. I understand tawwakkul, and being in love, and our struggle everyday to live by the Quran and sunnah- but i would certainly not post this advice on a public message board knowing the possible problems that may arise. It may be that this is being practiced out there...successfully.. but it's not something i'd want to propogate. Allah advises us against multiple marriages, and it's illegal!

this is obviously my opinion- so any good in it is from Allah, and any shortcomings are my own.

Siraaj
03-26-2008, 08:53 PM
If the husband has provided the first wife with the right of a legally recognized marraige, and what that comes with.. he ought to offer subsequent wives the same legal recognition. That's only fair.

This type of arrangement is very risky, and you never know what the future holds. I understand tawwakkul, and being in love, and our struggle everyday to live by the Quran and sunnah- but i would certainly not post this advice on a public message board knowing the possible problems that may arise. It may be that this is being practiced out there...successfully.. but it's not something i'd want to propogate. Allah advises us against multiple marriages, and it's illegal!

this is obviously my opinion- so any good in it is from Allah, and any shortcomings are my own.

That's an interesting perspective to see it from - that the husband provides the marriage contract. Why not see it from the opposite perspective - that the wife provides the marriage contract?

Or better still, why not see it as another woman cannot provide a married man a state-sponsored marriage contract when another woman has already provided for him - one could then argue, from this perspective, that the state is taking away a right that Allah subhaana wa ta'aala has given her :D

In reality, neither husband nor wife are providing one another contracts - the state chooses the conditions, and besides that, wives can according to their own preferences and discretion give up what is not relevant or important to them, and there would be no violation or injustice (and in this case, it's not even something that the husband provides to begin with).

Regarding Allah subhaana wa ta'aala advising against it, the only advice against it is for those who cannot financially handle it with justice (that I'm aware of, if you know of other advices, I would be happy to learn them). On the other hand, there are scholars who opine that the ayah in nisaa which advises to marry 2, 3, or 4, but if you can't handle that, then marry 1 is actually giving preference to polygyny as the default, monogamy being the exception.

Shaykh Yasir, on the other hand, teaches the other perspective that monogamy is the default. I'm not saying one opinion is stronger over the other, simply that there are different perspectives which have scholarly backing and can be respected, insha'Allah.

In any event, that's neither here nor there - my point in bringing up this whole thing was not to make it general advice for all to take, but simply to illustrate that the poor woman in question who had been married for 30 years and then divorced because the brother in question believed he had to divorce her to marry the younger wife was operating under a false assumption, and that it could have been possible for this woman to remain married to her husband, but perhaps this is what is best for her.

And Allah subhaana wa ta'aala knows best.

Siraaj

extempers
03-26-2008, 09:59 PM
I'm never comfortable with this subject....it's just so hard to understand unless you truly follow all the basic tenets of Islam first.

Sally Mahmoud
03-27-2008, 05:36 PM
In any event, that's neither here nor there - my point in bringing up this whole thing was not to make it general advice for all to take, but simply to illustrate that the poor woman in question who had been married for 30 years and then divorced because the brother in question believed he had to divorce her to marry the younger wife was operating under a false assumption, and that it could have been possible for this woman to remain married to her husband, but perhaps this is what is best for her.

And Allah subhaana wa ta'aala knows best.

Siraaj

I understand your point, and I'm sure the people in question were not unaware of their options..the young lady probably wanted to ensure her rights, so that when 30 years go by ..she too can have some legal recourse.

Thank you for clarifying your position. When different opinions are discussed there's the benefit of 1- becoming stronger in your belief or 2- starting to see things the other way.

I'll keep the OP's friend in my duaa... Just remind her that there's wisdom in this sequence of events, and that Allah will not forsake her.

sr gemala
03-12-2009, 01:26 PM
Salam

I am a divorced sister from the East. Was married for 8 years, now I am a working single mom. I am fortunate as I am able to live my life and support my daughter and now currently building up my iman and search for better and meaningful life. We all know that marriage is temporarily you either keep the marriage until death do you apart or you get divorced / separated. Either way, life must go on. And the beauty of all these predicaments that each and every divorced, single or widowed sisters or brothers faced have been nothing but a test from Allah swt and He shall provides you with better and fulfilling life with or without partner.

Being single is not fate but a choice, but being divorced is not a choice but fate.. So the fate in her marriage is short lived... so what, stop worry ... move on and take a productive role and fight for your right, sister in islam!!.

I empathized for this sister whom has committed her life for last 30 years to a man who later ditched her for a younger woman. The question is why the husband failed to follow what is taught in Islam. In my country when a husband divorced his wife he must compensate her with Muta'ah (consolidatory gift) equal to the amount of years of her loyalty and service for her husband both physical and emotionally. It is hard to measure but in my country Muta'ah is compulsary and the husband must provide once the wife applied for it from the court of syariah in the country. She may ask for a house, a car, even properties and other assests and monetary for her to start her business or some sort of generating income in lieu for her sacrifices and commitment in the marriage. These all depends on how wealthy or otherwise affordable her husband is but the syariah law may imposed and grant a substantial amount on her husband to give the former wife and he must accommodate to her requests.

May you be blessed with all goodness from Allah... here and after...