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Sally Mahmoud
04-23-2008, 10:53 AM
I heard from a good friend yesterday that she and her husband are no longer together..

It really shocked me, and it's always so sad to hear about these sorts of things.. much like how we mourn someone dying.. the end of a relationship is such a big thing.. it affects even people who were not involved at all..

It makes me sad.. but again.. it must be for the best.. at least 3 young couples that i personally knew have ended their marriages in the past year.. and it's very scary.. and what's scarier is that they all seemed to be very much in love..

This is a reminder to myself and others to cherish every moment, to be patient and thankful, whether single or married... b/c you never know what the future holds..

Sarah Mushtaq
04-23-2008, 04:41 PM
SubhanAllah, a friend of mine told me today as well her sister and her brother-in-law aren't married anymore.. and I agree, for whatever reason it may be, it is very sad to hear.

JazakhumAllahu Khayrn for those points!

hibahmac
04-24-2008, 05:10 PM
It's very sad but also an opportunity for those who divorced to learn something about themselves. If they walk away taking absolutely no responsibility for their own conduct and shortcomings, then it truly was wasted time as far as this life goes and of course they'll see the merit of their deeds in the marriage again in the Hereafter.

Those of us around them can also learn without prying into the details of the marriage by asking the divorcee we know, " What nugget of wisdom would you share on marriage without divulging how you learned it specifically?" If the person can't do that, then leave it, but if so, it can be something more that "sad" but also instructive. A married or divorced questioner can see what truth the advice holds and, bare minimum, take it as a reminder. For the single & never married, it can be something to revisit upon prepping for marriage.

I think the best response of all is to take news of divorce as a prompt to turn to Allah, to ask for whatever fits one's personal situation. In this way, we can go from saying that awwww response to du'a, the heart of worship, and hearing the sad news can be of some benefit, even in this small way.

Sally Mahmoud
04-24-2008, 06:56 PM
Those of us around them can also learn without prying into the details of the marriage by asking the divorcee we know, " What nugget of wisdom would you share on marriage without divulging how you learned it specifically?" If the person can't do that, then leave it, but if so, it can be something more that "sad" but also instructive. A married or divorced questioner can see what truth the advice holds and, bare minimum, take it as a reminder. For the single & never married, it can be something to revisit upon prepping for marriage.


this is good advice.. i would be too embarassed to ask that though.. i doubt there's anytime when it would be ok.. it would almost be like trying to buy the couch off your evicted neighbor..

I think i'm feeling a little better.. my friend's a strong woman masha'Allah.. and she's dealing with it really well.. the sadness that comes from these sorts of news is part of our fitrah i think.. as muslims, and in American society we recognize that having a mate = happiness.. and when relationships breaks down, we're sad to see loved ones go through that period of trial..

My friend said something really beautiful along the lines of "I hope everything's well in your marriage, and you guys are climbing the mountain... patiently persevering..." it's pure poetry, and has so much symbolism to the marital journey.. i think that's her advice..

May Allah protect our hearts, and bless our marriages with happiness and harmony.

Sally Mahmoud
04-24-2008, 06:59 PM
right now my dad is dealing w/ a divorce case and the sad part about the whole thing is they have children and they've been together for about 8yrs..so when the kids see there parents seperated and not getting along it's really hard for them... when i hear about these kind of problems it just ruins my day..
ps. make dua...

yea.. it sucks when people bring children in to the world and subject them to these sorts of trials..

Is your dad an imam?

~Oum AbdurRahman~
04-25-2008, 04:17 PM
As-salaamoulaikoum wa rahmtAllah,

It's a bitter, miserable world we live in. When I hear those sad divorce stories, it's like I get flashed back into the past. The truth is this. In the western society, if a muslima(I'm speaking as a convert) is not involved in the Muslim community, divorce is something almost unbearable to handle. It makes such a world of difference when you have good honest friends and neighbors to lean on in such an "ibtila'" or tribulation. It's helps sooo so much.

If you personally know a sister who has been recently divorced, try hard to be there for her in any way possible, especially if she's a converted Muslim and has no family to lean on. Because you will be gaining so many mountains of rewards. I will never forget all the sisters who were there for me during my past tribulations . Some sisters were even there when I had nobody to hold my hand as I was about to have a cesarian. I cannot ever say enough du'ah for them. The sister who stayed with me in the hospital, those who came to my home when I was weak---and I am forever thankful to Allah for having put them in my path during that extremely grim time in my life.

Life is definitely a highway....a journey full of so many surprises, good and bad ones.

It's scary to ponder over what I'm about to say. If we knew what were to happen to us in the near future, we would be so thankful for the light circumstances we are in today.

There was this man here in my small village, a well known imam. He was giving the Friday khutbah about death. And then subhanallah, as he had left the masjid, he suffered a brain stroke, and to Allah he returned(*he was only in his forties I believe).

It's really scary how Allah 'Azza wa Jal works; how we could be laughing and smiling with our husbands and kids today and then tomorrow, Allah can take that all away in a second....May Allah protect us from fear, fear of death, fear of the unknown...Ameen.

Sally Mahmoud
04-25-2008, 08:42 PM
It's scary to ponder over what I'm about to say. If we knew what were to happen to us in the near future, we would be so thankful for the light circumstances we are in today.



This is one of my favorite quotes! A friend of mine said it to some of us during a particularly trying time but she put a different spin on it-

basically she meant it as- while what circumstances you are going through now may seem difficult- if you saw the big picture, and the khair that is to come... you'd be so much more pleased with the trial b/c you know what you're getting in the end is worth it!

and it was so true! I ended up getting an opportunity that was a welcomed relief from what i had been involved in previously.. Alhamdulillah i have good thoughts about both situations, and I can see how each time period helped me become a better person.. but it was really nice to reflect back on the entire evolution of events from the perspective of the above quote.

The reason i'm sharing this interpretation is because my initial impression when she said the quote was the way you implied it here: "if you knew how bad it was gonna get, what you have now would seem like nothing so be thankful!" but i wanted to point out that it can be taken in a positive light as well... and alhamdulillah that Islam encourages us to think the best of Allah and fate.. insha'Allah things always get better and not worse :)

tammam
04-26-2008, 03:41 AM
I hope these divorces spark people to be more careful about marriage (i.e. try to prepare more and find out better about their potential spouses). You're right that there are tons of young Muslim divorcees, and I know it's much harder on the sisters than the brothers to be remarried.

qalb-e-saleema
04-26-2008, 02:21 PM
Have you ever thought about the sahabas (ra) lives and realized and how many among them actually got divorced!!....even the Prophet (as) wanted to divorce one of his (saw) wives.....
sometimes two people are just better off apart than together for their own and their chidren's general well-being...

But i think as women we sort of get a shiver down the spine when we hear divorce coz maybe we so strongly belive that marriage is something so beautiful and 'shatter-proof' and unbreakable when two people really love each other???

I am not married and Marriage really confounds me....my brother got married 5 months ago and subghnallah (they live with us) he and his wife just get along like a house on fire....they are always togther and jsut are themselves and that's inspiring, algh..
then i know of other couples who have to 'tip-toe' around each other coz they never know how the other would react.

Just my little thoughts on the topic

tammam
04-26-2008, 04:11 PM
I agree. Divorce should be avoided, but we shouldn't make it haraam and so taboo; it is best for it to remain as a means to solve the problem of those who just don't fit well with each other.

AKA
04-26-2008, 04:31 PM
'it's better to have loved & lost then to have never loved at all'.

anyone agrees? i dont.

Sally Mahmoud
04-26-2008, 05:02 PM
'it's better to have loved & lost then to have never loved at all'.

anyone agrees? i dont.

i love this! thanks for the interesting question- I agree!

Love- is not just the warm tingly feeling and the all the positive stuff you hear about.. it's so much more.. and to go through the levels/stages/moods of love... is to have been blessed by Allah! Remember.. He says that in creating mates for us is a sign.. and it would be the greatest honor to have experienced the power of Allah through a halaal loving relationship that ended and to know the tranquility and turmoil that love creates... I think that is so much more important to experience than shielding one's self from potential hurt..

Sally Mahmoud
04-26-2008, 05:06 PM
I agree. Divorce should be avoided, but we shouldn't make it haraam and so taboo; it is best for it to remain as a means to solve the problem of those who just don't fit well with each other.


i remember this sheikh was talking once..and he was so casual about what you have above...he said... in islam.. you marry the person and you take a huge leap of faith, if you will, and if it doesn't work out... that's fine! We have divorce for a reason.. so use it..

It was different to hear someone deal with the issue in such a nonchalant way... There are lots of good people out there, but they're not always good for each other.. somethings can be worked out.. other things are deal breakers..

Sally Mahmoud
04-26-2008, 05:09 PM
I am not married and Marriage really confounds me....my brother got married 5 months ago and subghnallah (they live with us) he and his wife just get along like a house on fire....they are always togther and jsut are themselves and that's inspiring, algh..
then i know of other couples who have to 'tip-toe' around each other coz they never know how the other would react.


"a house on fire!"- lol!

sadiav
04-27-2008, 05:37 AM
I agree. Divorce should be avoided, but we shouldn't make it haraam and so taboo; it is best for it to remain as a means to solve the problem of those who just don't fit well with each other.

True we always must strive to have a suitable balance. On the one hand couples shouldnt run to divorce after every small disagreement and should instead try their best to always resolve any issues and hold their marriage together. And also we must not go to the other extreme which makes divorce "a fate worse than death" and stigmatizes someone who is divorced so badly that their families feel they must live in shame and the divorced woman can never marry again (which is sadly the case in many of our communities). Islam is all about balance and moderation in everything, thats why its so beautiful walhamdulillah

~Oum AbdurRahman~
04-27-2008, 05:40 AM
The idea of divorce cannot always be considered so non-chalant in some circumstances, such as when there are children involved. A muslim (convert) wife who has small children, and then gets divorced faces either A. A life alone in celebacy raising her children, or B. she remarries, but she will live in agony for the rest of her life not having custody of her children, and she can only see her kids only at the other party's convenience, plus her kids will be raised by someone else. It's a really sad ordeal. It was mentioned before in this thread . -I hope that all those single unmarried people out there are reading this...so they might take heed of the consequences of jumping into marriage without being careful and cautious. There is an option C., which was never to have gotten a divorce in the first place, and to stay in a miserable marriage that could turn into a violent scene of abuse and oppression leading to suicide, death, and or serious psychological harm on all parties involved.

In truth, it's a loose/loose situation for a divorced muslim converted sister. However, if she is patient, perhaps Allah will allow her to enter Jannah. But how many of us can honestly be patient... patience is so valuable and yet so hard to come by when everything around you is destroyed and falling down.

May Allah help us in dealing and facing reality. Ameen.

hassanm
04-27-2008, 09:15 AM
In truth, it's a loose/loose situation for a divorced muslim converted sister. However, if she is patient, perhaps Allah will allow her to enter Jannah. But how many of us can honestly be patient... patience is so valuable and yet so hard to come by when everything around you is destroyed and falling down.

May Allah help us in dealing and facing reality. Ameen.

Its lose/lose situation for many practicing muslim men. I know lot of brothers whose wives took their cases to non-islamic courts and got custody of children claiming their respective husbands values do not conform to western standards, and ofcourse how can jury and judge give custody to a father who want to make the children better muslims.

Divorce is really hard on men in west, women get away with children, house and child alimony.

Mubarak
04-27-2008, 11:31 AM
Like the brother mentioned above, divorce can become a serious issue for men, especially here in the West. But it seems to me, the more I speak to brothers, I find that divorce is not a major issue that they contemplate over before they get married, whereas, it seems sometimes that our sisters spend a lot of time preparing for the worst, rather than hoping for the best. I could be wrong and Allah knows best. I also understand that in most cases, it is easier for a brother to get remarried after divorce then it would be for a sister and because of that known fact, sisters have to be extra careful when they decide to enter into a marriage. But lets get one thing straight inshAllah. Life span is decreed, marriage is decreed, children are decreed, time of death is decreed and by the way, divorce is also decreed by Allah, the Most Merciful and despite all the preparation that a soul may take, the decree of Allah will come.

Also and although a huge population of young couples are getting divorce (and by the way, its become a serious issue that each community needs to look further into), we need to understand that some of the greatest companions also got divorced and to name one, Abu Bakr (may Allah have mercy on his soul). Sometimes divorce is the best option for a couple and the trails may become extremely tough but we should never lose hope. Be patient and I kind of feel like the advice of “be patient” is easier for me to say to those of us who have gotten divorced and because of my lack of sensitivity in selecting my words, I ask you to forgive me inshAllah if I came off a little harsh because Im a nice brotherhttp://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon7.gif. I am inshAllah.

Wa'salaam alaikum

bosnian
04-27-2008, 10:48 PM
'it's better to have loved & lost then to have never loved at all'.

anyone agrees? i dont.
Even I am divorced I still agree with the quote above. I would never change my situation that I am in now divorced with 2 children with someone that had never married before and has no children. Even I went through many difficulties in my marriage alhamdulillah Allah swt gave me two children who if Allah swt inshAllah guides will be the best thing that ever could happened to me in this world.

~Oum AbdurRahman~
04-28-2008, 01:48 PM
Its lose/lose situation for many practicing muslim men. I know lot of brothers whose wives took their cases to non-islamic courts and got custody of children claiming their respective husbands values do not conform to western standards, and ofcourse how can jury and judge give custody to a father who want to make the children better muslims.

Divorce is really hard on men in west, women get away with children, house and child alimony.


Perhaps those women who do that are not just, and Allah will account them. Yet at the same time, there could be other reasons why they go to the courts. It depends on the individual case. You just never know where the exact oppression lies . Some men are not just as well and are physically abusive, and they believe it's okay to beat women outside of what Allah has allowed. Do you think then, that those men should be allowed to have custody of young children to raise? Even in Islam? Who's to judge those cases? They need a sharia' court. The shyookh in the west cannot enforce any type of authority on either parties, all they can do is advise. So when there is true dhulum, what is the solution for those individual cases? For men and/or women? Hay heeya al mishkilah. That's one reason that I'm glad I live where I do. Because while this country is not completely Islamic, atleast I can still go to an actual Sharia' Qadhi at anytime.

hassanm
04-28-2008, 03:00 PM
Perhaps those women who do that are not just, and Allah will account them. Yet at the same time, there could be other reasons why they go to the courts. It depends on the individual case. You just never know where the exact oppression lies . Some men are not just as well and are physically abusive, and they believe it's okay to beat women outside of what Allah has allowed. Do you think then, that those men should be allowed to have custody of young children to raise? Even in Islam? Who's to judge those cases? They need a sharia' court. The shyookh in the west cannot enforce any type of authority on either parties, all they can do is advise. So when there is true dhulum, what is the solution for those individual cases? For men and/or women? Hay heeya al mishkilah. That's one reason that I'm glad I live where I do. Because while this country is not completely Islamic, atleast I can still go to an actual Sharia' Qadhi at anytime.

The discussion needs to be neutral and I am glad you are bringing it back to original intent (how to resolve high rates of divorce and what should be role of community and scholars). But blaming men only (thinking that divorce is not hard on men, or they are always on fault) would not solve the issue in general. If Allah would hold account to bad women as you said, surely He would hold bad men account to. Wassalam.

Sally Mahmoud
04-28-2008, 03:04 PM
The discussion needs to be neutral and I am glad you are bringing it back to original intent (how to resolve high rates of divorce and what should be role of community and scholars). But blaming men only (thinking that divorce is not hard on men, or they are always on fault) would not solve the issue in general. If Allah would hold account to bad women as you said, surely He would hold bad men account to. Wassalam.

i actually liked reading about divorce from the male perspective.. i think what bros go through is taken for granted since generally the separation is harder on women for emotional/financial reasons...

Generous_1
04-28-2008, 05:45 PM
Its lose/lose situation for many practicing muslim men. I know lot of brothers whose wives took their cases to non-islamic courts and got custody of children claiming their respective husbands values do not conform to western standards, and ofcourse how can jury and judge give custody to a father who want to make the children better muslims.

Divorce is really hard on men in west, women get away with children, house and child alimony.
But there are brothers out there who use Islam as a means to abuse and control their wives like denying their wives the right to be educated and to work. This is a fact that can't be ignored. Sometimes it is alright to go to non-Islamic courts if that is what will get others to respect your basic human rights. Divorce sometimes is a blessing in disguise lets not forget that fact either.

tammam
04-28-2008, 05:53 PM
True, I agree with this. Something I think we may be ignoring as well is that no one really knows Shari'ah but Allah (SWT), whereas fiqh is our understanding of it, imperfect, and has a rich tradition of disagreement. When Canada, for example, or Great Britain would ask what law to put into practice for Muslim marriage, divorce, inheritance, etc. it would get a large number of diverse replies ranging across the spectrum of Islam. Why use it then? It is one of the difficulties also that Muslims who want to "Instate Shari'ah Law" or making a government "Islamic," whatever that means, face. It's not clear and to apply one of such law on all Muslims resembles more the Modern Nation State than the Muslim empires of the past...

hassanm
04-28-2008, 06:12 PM
But there are brothers out there who use Islam as a means to abuse and control their wives like denying their wives the right to be educated and to work. This is a fact that can't be ignored. Sometimes it is alright to go to non-Islamic courts if that is what will get others to respect your basic human rights. Divorce sometimes is a blessing in disguise lets not forget that fact either.

Right to work? I did not know that was islamic right of woman to work. Can you please provide some evidence about it, I would appreciate.

The issue of divorces would never be solved... if we concentrate on the bad examples. It does not worry me much if there takes a divorce between an abusive husband and religious wife, or a religious husband and an abusive wife. What worries me if there are two decent religious people not getting along with each other. And people keep citing the time of sahabah that it was not big deal, ofcourse it was not, because they had whole society that understood it, and sahabah never left any woman in society unmarried (regardless of her number of children or number of previous marriage, and women were not picky on being second or third wife). Their divorces were done in Al-Maruf, they did not end their marriages with fight and going to non-islamic courts. So we can not expect men or women to take this matter lightly.

hassanm
04-28-2008, 06:15 PM
Sometimes it is alright to go to non-Islamic courts if that is what will get others to respect your basic human rights.

I think it is naive to ruin one's life and children's life just to prove a point.

tammam
04-28-2008, 06:22 PM
I think it is being a terrible husband to not allow your wife to be educated or work and be so controlling (unless she agrees to such a relationship beforehand).

Anyways, I, again, ask the question, where are "Islamic" courts in North America? How is it wrong to go to the government's courts? Do we expect to have an "Islamic" divorce then not have a government to back up such a contract's end? How would child support be enforced?

I'm happy that some Imams are strict about a marriage certificate being presented to be signed before even the katb al-kitab.

Concerning being "naive to ruin one's life and children's life just to prove a point," I'll be the first male to say that I don't know what it's like to be in a woman's shoes. It's easy to say this from one side of the issue...

Sally Mahmoud
04-28-2008, 06:29 PM
I think it is naive to ruin one's life and children's life just to prove a point.


If there's abuse in the relationship, and there are kids involved- their lives are being destroyed anyway!

Divorce does not equal ruining one's life.. it can be a rebirth for both parties. Just because 2 people are religious and good does not mean they can make a good husband and wife for each other.. and it's hard to guage all this when you're engaged.. sometimes it takes alot of trial and error before people decide to part ways.

As to children, hopefully a couple will learn that they're not compatible before they have kids, but..as i said.. sometimes being raised in a cold, unloving home can be worse than being raised by happy healthy remarried parents!

hassanm
04-28-2008, 06:40 PM
If there's abuse in the relationship, and there are kids involved- their lives are being destroyed anyway!

Divorce does not equal ruining one's life.. it can be a rebirth for both parties. Just because 2 people are religious and good does not mean they can make a good husband and wife for each other.. and it's hard to guage all this when you're engaged.. sometimes it takes alot of trial and error before people decide to part ways.

As to children, hopefully a couple will learn that they're not compatible before they have kids, but..as i said.. sometimes being raised in a cold, unloving home can be worse than being raised by happy healthy remarried parents!

I meant taking to non-islamic courts not divorce itself. They can just divorce islamically.

What is surprising to me is lots of encouragement of divorce in the forums. Perhaps that is why its high here in west. And as I said, it should be fine, if society (muslims in west) would be ok with it, to marry divorced person, and multiple wives etc. Also one reason of divorce being high may be the definition of abusive. (if not letting wife work is abusive, then God help us!)

Sally Mahmoud
04-28-2008, 07:10 PM
I meant taking to non-islamic courts not divorce itself. They can just divorce islamically.

What is surprising to me is lots of encouragement of divorce in the forums. Perhaps that is why its high here in west. And as I said, it should be fine, if society (muslims in west) would be ok with it, to marry divorced person, and multiple wives etc. Also one reason of divorce being high may be the definition of abusive. (if not letting wife work is abusive, then God help us!)

really? hmmm.. i haven't really seen too many threads supporting divorce..this very thread was started b/c of a sad divorce situation. i have seen a number of threads supporting multiple marriages though..

I think the reason divorce in the west, and muslim divorce in the west may be high..is because people have options.. people may not be trying hard enough to make it work..

hassanm
04-28-2008, 08:13 PM
really? hmmm.. i haven't really seen too many threads supporting divorce..this very thread was started b/c of a sad divorce situation. i have seen a number of threads supporting multiple marriages though..

I think the reason divorce in the west, and muslim divorce in the west may be high..is because people have options.. people may not be trying hard enough to make it work..

Just read this thread, and other threads related to marriage, there are many who have casual attitude towards the issue.

And yes may be having options, also contributes to people not working hard to make it work.

Generous_1
04-28-2008, 09:03 PM
I think it is naive to ruin one's life and children's life just to prove a point.If divorce could ruin people's lives Allah in his infinite wisdom wouldn't have made it permissible. You have an option, either live together in good or part in good. Allah made life simple. Complicating it is what is essentially naive.

hassanm
04-28-2008, 09:45 PM
If divorce could ruin people's lives Allah in his infinite wisdom wouldn't have made it permissible. You have an option, either live together in good or part in good. Allah made life simple. Complicating it is what is essentially naive.

Read my previous posts, divorce for right reasons is fine, divorce using non-islamic courts to prove a point is not.

Generous_1
04-28-2008, 10:36 PM
In cases of abuse or where the husband is difficult and unco-operative after seperation or even divorce, going to court to establish boundaries (not to prove a point) is inevitable. We live in this west, you wouldn't hesitate to use the court system for other reasons, why is it not acceptable to use it for this purpose?

~Oum AbdurRahman~
04-29-2008, 04:58 AM
Okay I'll bring in what I heard Sheikh Waleed Basyouni mention in a halaqa. He mentioned that going to the non Islamic court is not recommend in cases of divorce and custody rights. However as far as civil disputes are concerned, (*theft, was the example he gave) then one may go to a non islamic court for those. Wa Allahu 3alem.

We should attempt to define what are considered as basic human rights. If any one disagrees with me, please do point that out. But this is my own interpretation of what I would consider as basic human rights in Islam, in a marital situation. Please correct me if I am wrong.

1. The right to be treated with justice.(Not to be locked up, imprisoned, enslaved, held capture indefinitely without reason.)

2. For the wife, she has the right to be fed, clothed, and sheltered as the husband would feed and clothe himself.

3.The right to spend ones wealth freely.

4.The right not to be cursed at, and beaten unjustly out of anger and out of ignorance, oppressed.

5. The right to earn ones own wealth, with in the limits of what the Scholars of Islam have judged as acceptable and allowed.

**I'm not sure if this would be considered a basic human marital right?)
6. The right to be honored (*treated kindly, lived with in faith,obeyed**Husband's right is to be obeyed with what is just and pure)

Wa Allahu 3alem, perhaps there are things that I have left out, or not mentioned. Please do add any comments, or correct me if I am wrong.

~Oum AbdurRahman~
04-29-2008, 05:07 AM
In cases of abuse or where the husband is difficult and unco-operative after seperation or even divorce, going to court to establish boundaries (not to prove a point) is inevitable. We live in this west, you wouldn't hesitate to use the court system for other reasons, why is it not acceptable to use it for this purpose?


Exactly, this is what I understood as well. Because some men are not religious and do not give Allah 'Azza wa Jal His rights, so in that case most likely they are sometimes careless in giving others their rights. In any case, one should seek advice from an imam in the local Islamic center before deciding to go to the courts, or from a scholar.

There are a group shyookh that specialize in fataawa law in Islam, I saw their add before in the pamphelet at the Texas Da'wah conference. I forgot their website. Sheikh Muhammad Saalih or Salaah is the first name that comes to mind.... though I could be wrong.

~Oum AbdurRahman~
04-29-2008, 05:13 AM
Read my previous posts, divorce for right reasons is fine, divorce using non-islamic courts to prove a point is not.


If the husband is unjust and he knows it, okay going to non-islamic courts might not be needed to prove a point, in fact it might get end results, but after wasting alot of time and money. Instead, I would recommend a solution that is billions of times more potent than any judgement a court could possibly pass- and that would be the du3ah of the oppressed. A simple, "Hasbi-Allahu n3amul Wakeel" at the late hours of the night would suffice any oppressed person... and Allah would surely and insha'allah swiftly answer that du3ah . I can honestly say that I am an eye witness to the amazing power of that du3ah...alhamdulilah.

hassanm
04-29-2008, 09:19 AM
Exactly, this is what I understood as well. Because some men are not religious and do not give Allah 'Azza wa Jal His rights, so in that case most likely they are sometimes careless in giving others their rights. In any case, one should seek advice from an imam in the local Islamic center before deciding to go to the courts, or from a scholar.

There are a group shyookh that specialize in fataawa law in Islam, I saw their add before in the pamphelet at the Texas Da'wah conference. I forgot their website. Sheikh Muhammad Saalih or Salaah is the first name that comes to mind.... though I could be wrong.
Assembly of Muslim Jurists of North America. They pretty much answer many questions related to non-islamic courts, so people who want scholarly opinion can go there.

hassanm
04-29-2008, 09:26 AM
In cases of abuse or where the husband is difficult and unco-operative after seperation or even divorce, going to court to establish boundaries (not to prove a point) is inevitable. We live in this west, you wouldn't hesitate to use the court system for other reasons, why is it not acceptable to use it for this purpose?

Nikah is islamic contract and islamic laws apply to it. Two people can be married without court recognition and can be divorced without court knowing about it. I do not go to western courts to determine my zakat or other religious matters where sharia has talked about it. The taking riba-based loans are completely legal according to court of the lands, while not according to islamic laws, So I do not know how are you suggesting that I would not hesitate to go to courts.

Mubarak
04-29-2008, 09:52 AM
Its true. When it comes to laws, we shouldnt be quick to rush to governments that are created and operated based upon man-made laws. Alhamdulilah, Islam afford us the rights to live without oppression and the law of Allah brings liberation to every situation (even cases that have to do with abuse). Many times in the Quran, Allah warns us about following those who have submitted to their desires and alhamdulilah being a Muslim, we shouldnt allow our souls to incline towards a system that is made up of laws that change as the weather changes. If Allah has honoured an individual with Islam and that individual has completed their marriage contract in a matter that pleases Allah and it is within Allah's plan for that person to get divorced, than that same person should still submit to Allah's law because marriage is properity while divorce is adversity but the law of Allah doesnt change, nor should a person who has submitted to the former change when the later meets that individual and Allah knows best.

hassanm
04-29-2008, 10:01 AM
Okay I'll bring in what I heard Sheikh Waleed Basyouni mention in a halaqa. He mentioned that going to the non Islamic court is not recommend in cases of divorce and custody rights. However as far as civil disputes are concerned, (*theft, was the example he gave) then one may go to a non islamic court for those. Wa Allahu 3alem.

We should attempt to define what are considered as basic human rights. If any one disagrees with me, please do point that out. But this is my own interpretation of what I would consider as basic human rights in Islam, in a marital situation. Please correct me if I am wrong.

1. The right to be treated with justice.(Not to be locked up, imprisoned, enslaved, held capture indefinitely without reason.)

2. For the wife, she has the right to be fed, clothed, and sheltered as the husband would feed and clothe himself.

3.The right to spend ones wealth freely.

4.The right not to be cursed at, and beaten unjustly out of anger and out of ignorance, oppressed.

5. The right to earn ones own wealth, with in the limits of what the Scholars of Islam have judged as acceptable and allowed.

**I'm not sure if this would be considered a basic human marital right?)
6. The right to be honored (*treated kindly, lived with in faith,obeyed**Husband's right is to be obeyed with what is just and pure)

Wa Allahu 3alem, perhaps there are things that I have left out, or not mentioned. Please do add any comments, or correct me if I am wrong.

I am not sure about number 5, a scholar can clarify it. And surprisingly you put only one husband right, and in brackets. Kindly make a separate thread about rights, this is about divorces, and it seems women think divorces only happen because of men and their abusiveness. I have wasted quite a bit of time, here trying to have meaningful discussion about our society in general, but I guess women are determined to make all issues personal and how bad men are. No further comments from me, till the discussion becomes gender neutral, no examples of extreme cases as well. Wassalam.

Hala
04-29-2008, 10:07 AM
Br hassanm, no need to take offense. The majority of contributors to this thread (and the FOL/LN folders) are women so you will understandably hear a biased point of view.

~Safia~
04-29-2008, 03:12 PM
I am not sure about number 5, a scholar can clarify it. And surprisingly you put only one husband right, and in brackets. Kindly make a separate thread about rights, this is about divorces, and it seems women think divorces only happen because of men and their abusiveness. I have wasted quite a bit of time, here trying to have meaningful discussion about our society in general, but I guess women are determined to make all issues personal and how bad men are. No further comments from me, till the discussion becomes gender neutral, no examples of extreme cases as well. Wassalam.Her list may be dealing with the rights of the wife, but for the most part on these forums we see lists like 'obligations and responsibilities of the wife' and 'rights of the husband'. I find it interesting that you have a problem with this and not the numerous other lists and articles in the marriage folders that deal with the husband.

Akhi, before you point fingers at the sisters here for blaming men for divorce and making issues personal, I'll remind you that your first post in this thread was that divorce was "hard on men" and how women get away with everything.

hassanm
04-29-2008, 03:27 PM
Her list may be dealing with the rights of the wife, but for the most part on these forums we see lists like 'obligations and responsibilities of the wife' and 'rights of the husband'. I find it interesting that you have a problem with this and not the numerous other lists and articles in the marriage folders that deal with the husband.

Because all lists are under appropriate thread, and there are many threads for each gender, and this was not this thread supposed to have.


Akhi, before you point fingers at the sisters here for blaming men for divorce and making issues personal, I'll remind you that your first post in this thread was that divorce was "hard on men" and how women get away with everything.

Apparently the history of thread started when I posted, kindly read posts before that, and then see my post in context.

~Safia~
04-29-2008, 03:41 PM
Apparently the history of thread started when I posted, kindly read posts before that, and then see my post in context.That's not the point. You've accused people of making the discussion gender specific, and it can hardly be said that you've done your part to ensure the issues stay neutral. Besides, it was your comment that provoked the discussion you seem to be so frustrated with.

Sally Mahmoud
04-29-2008, 03:48 PM
SubhanAllah- there must be something in the water ;) everyone's a little edgy on the forums today! :)

this thread is about marriage and divorce.. i appreciate the unique perspective each gender brings.. amongst the responders we've had men and women, married, and divorced, perhaps singles as well...

we're just sharing, learning, synthesizing, appreciating.... NOT accusing, blaming or hating (and I'm on a total poetry roll!)

So.. let's keep things chill insha'Allah!

tammam
04-29-2008, 03:59 PM
Nikah is islamic contract and islamic laws apply to it. Two people can be married without court recognition and can be divorced without court knowing about it. I do not go to western courts to determine my zakat or other religious matters where sharia has talked about it. The taking riba-based loans are completely legal according to court of the lands, while not according to islamic laws, So I do not know how are you suggesting that I would not hesitate to go to courts. I'm commenting on this because it's such an important issue. We can't forget that even the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) used Jahili laws such as the idea of getting protection from others (starting with Abu Talib). Subhanallah, if we return to the Sira and see how the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) dealt with things and laws in his time, we can REALLY learn a lot. I mean, if we were in his position, we might have said, "Astaghfirullah, those are jahili laws; I will have Allah (SWT) to Protect me, and trust in Him because I have imaan."

Here's an example of what can happen if we follow the above quote (and this was written about in Islamic Horizons Magazine last year as a SERIOUS issue):
Man gets married to a woman, but there's no government contract; it's an "Islamic" marriage (I put it in quotes here because I disagree with such a contract that can't be reinforced by other means, such as our local polity). Then, he decides to marry another wife because it's "his right," regardless of what was written in the original contract and agreed upon prior to his marriage. He moves to another state, leaving this first lady and any children she may have, gets married to another lady and starts a new family. Now, this first lady is left in a limbo! I mean, if she tries to get married again, it's viewed as adultery, but, at the same time, there is no government or court system to reinforce child support or financial support from her husband. Sisters, please, please, please watch out for this! I mean, you will be in a terrible situation if you don't get a marriage contract through your local government and have something to make sure your husband adheres to the contract's specifications. This whole idea of just following "Islamic" contracts is not reflected in the Sira; I'll tell you what is: "Tie and rely." We don't just let our camels roam freely and rely on Allah (SWT) to keep them from running away. This is tawaakul, not tawakkul and un-Islamic. We tie the camel then rely on Allah (SWT) like how we should have an official contract with the local government then rely of Allah (SWT) to Bless us with a great marriage.

Wallahu A'lam (Allah Knows Best)

hassanm
04-29-2008, 04:04 PM
That's not the point. You've accused people of making the discussion gender specific, and it can hardly be said that you've done your part to ensure the issues stay neutral. Besides, it was your comment that provoked the discussion you seem to be so frustrated with.

Ofcourse before it was all rosy because all women were satisfied discussing how evil and abusive men are, God forbid if men tell that women are no angels.

I think the best I can do apparently is leave the discussion, I think I did not help much (although I wanted to). Let me know if you guys solve this issue by one sided discussion.

Sally Mahmoud
04-29-2008, 04:10 PM
Here's an example of what can happen if we follow the above quote (and this was written about in Islamic Horizons Magazine last year as a SERIOUS issue):
Man gets married to a woman, but there's no government contract; it's an "Islamic" marriage (I put it in quotes here because I disagree with such a contract that can't be reinforced by other means, such as our local polity). Then, he decides to marry another wife because it's "his right," regardless of what was written in the original contract and agreed upon prior to his marriage. He moves to another state, leaving this first lady and any children she may have, gets married to another lady and starts a new family. Now, this first lady is left in a limbo! I mean, if she tries to get married again, it's viewed as adultery, but, at the same time, there is no government or court system to reinforce child support or financial support from her husband. Sisters, please, please, please watch out for this! I mean, you will be in a terrible situation if you don't get a marriage contract through your local government and have something to make sure your husband adheres to the contract's specifications. This whole idea of just following "Islamic" contracts is not reflected in the Sira; I'll tell you what is: "Tie and rely." We don't just let our camels roam freely and rely on Allah (SWT) to keep them from running away. This is tawaakul, not tawakkul and un-Islamic. We tie the camel then rely on Allah (SWT) like how we should have an official contract with the local government then rely of Allah (SWT) to Bless us with a great marriage.

Wallahu A'lam (Allah Knows Best)

WELL SAID!!!!!!!!

~Safia~
04-29-2008, 04:39 PM
Ofcourse before it was all rosy because all women were satisfied discussing how evil and abusive men are, God forbid if men tell that women are no angels.
Well, it's clear we haven't been reading the same discussion then. I went through the first two pages again and I still can't seem to find this discussion on how 'evil and abusive men are' that you're describing. But what I did see the comments by sister OumAbdurRahman describing the situation for divorced Muslim sisters who are converts, with which she provided plenty of information from her own personal experiences as a convert. Other than that, there seemed to be two main points made:

1) It's more difficult for a divorced sister to remarry than a divorced brother
2) Divorce is hard on Muslim sisters

How anyone can manage to dispute the two points, I don't know. The first point leads into the second, while single mothers (Muslim and non-Muslim) are the poorest demographic in the West, only adding to the situation. It's also unrealistic to ignore the realities of domestic abuse, since that's often cited as the leading cause of divorce in North America, though it can vary from study to study.

Generous_1
04-29-2008, 08:27 PM
Br hassanm, no need to take offense. The majority of contributors to this thread (and the FOL/LN folders) are women so you will understandably hear a biased point of view.
I don't think we are biased. We are trying to bring to light the other side of the coin that got neglected. Why anyone would take offense to this is beyond me. And contrary to what you suggested Hala, I think a sliding majority of the sisters who contribute to the these folders have balanced views that are enlightening.

Hala
04-29-2008, 08:39 PM
I don't think we are biased. We are trying to bring to light the other side of the coin that got neglected. Why anyone would take offense to this is beyond me. And contrary to what you suggested Hala, I think a sliding majority of the sisters who contribute to the these folders have balanced views that are enlightening.

As enlightening as they may be, I sometimes do think they are biased and far from neutral.

Alhamdulilah, then I guess we can kindly agree to disagree.

~Oum AbdurRahman~
04-30-2008, 02:48 AM
Okay let me be just insha'Allah. Men's rights in an Islamic Marriage: Here goes.

1. The right to be obeyed(with what is just and pure in Islam)

2. The right to not be disrespected(cursed, screamed at, risen up against*nashiz means "uprising" in Arabic if I do recall correctly-wa Allahu 3alem.

3. The right to dictate who comes into the marital home as guests.

4. The right to raise his children according to pure Islamic values under the sharia' of Allah.

5. The right to punish his wife in cases of nashooz (advising, separation from eating and in the bed, then using something light such as a miswaak in order to lightly tap her if she does not respond to the previous steps.

6.The right to call his wife to bed, and be responded; in the case that she has no Islamic excuse(fasting ramadaan, sickness, monthly menses) she must respond.

7. The right to be honored with fidelity and treated kindly with ma3aruf.

Wa Allahu 3alem, now if I have missed anything, please do add any thing that I have missed, because I might have forgotten something.

Mubarak
04-30-2008, 03:05 AM
Oum AbdurRahman, JazakAllahu Khyre for taking the time to post the husbands rights. Indeed, the whole issue of divorce is tough on both parties and perhaps, more difficult for our sisters but our sisters shouldnt make it seem like the men dont experience hardship when the marriage comes to an end. Perhaps somewhere in all the exchanges, it may have come off like the brothers have no problem walking away from their marriages while the sisters are the ones that have to deal with the burdens because thats obviously not the case and Allah knows best.

Oum AbdurRahman, may Allah reward you and bless you and your family. And may He grant you a high status in paradise and grant you protection from the fire on the Day when we shall meet our Lord (Aameen Ya'Rabb, Aameen).

Saba
05-01-2008, 02:10 AM
Oum AbdurRahman, JazakAllahu Khyre for taking the time to post the husbands rights. Indeed, the whole issue of divorce is tough on both partiesIndeed.

I hope we can agree that both men and women are ultimately human and as such both feel pain whether it be at the event of a divorce, death or an accident.

What may differ is the ways in which the genders respond. It may be that a brother is going through a tough time so he goes and shoots some hoops with his buddies to unwind. And it may be that sisters huddle together and talk about their problem at a coffee shop or on AlMaghrib forums. The opposite can be true also since sisters play sports and brothers disuss too.

Moreover, there are angelic wives and beautiful husbands. There are also wife-beaters and wives who consistently play the 'victim' role. And we might see some types more than others because it depends on what we focus on.

When I focus on a statement too much and think something like 'men are abusive', I take that statement and turn it around to something like 'men are kind' or 'women are abusive' or 'I am abusive'. Then I find examples of where these 'turnarounds' are true and I realize 'Saba, you have ignorance at this point and what can I do now to learn more?'

Now, these turnarounds do not negate the original statement. These turarounds broaden my horizons and helps me realize there are so many other possibilites.

Oum AbdurRahman, may Allah reward you and bless you and your family. And may He grant you a high status in paradise and grant you protection from the fire on the Day when we shall meet our Lord (Aameen Ya'Rabb, Aameen).Ameen :)

tammam
05-01-2008, 02:13 AM
That's an interesting way to eliminate stereotypes, Saba; I think I'll try it with other things as well (like race, gender, class, religion, etc.).

Mubarak
05-01-2008, 02:19 AM
When I focus on a statement too much and think something like 'men are abusive', I take that statement and turn it around to something like 'men are kind' or 'women are abusive' or 'I am abusive'. Then I find examples of where these 'turnarounds' are true and I realize 'Saba, you have ignorance at this point and what can I do now to learn more?' ....MashAllah Saba. I dont know anyone who can FLIP matters to reflect the positives the way your tactic above does. MashAllah

(O'Allah, grant me the skill and ability to see the positives from the worst and best situations)

Saba
05-01-2008, 02:21 AM
That's an interesting way to eliminate stereotypes, Saba; I think I'll try it with other things as well (like race, gender, class, religion, etc.).It is, eh! Yes you can try it on anything and anyone. Alhumdulillah I learned it from a simple women: Byron Katie's The Work. She has written a book called "Loving What Is" and "I Need Your Love, Is that true?" I hope we find it helpful as I did, alhumdulillah. Her work is simple and profound.

Alhumdulillah I was introduced to it by a Muslim coach in training.

Saba
05-01-2008, 02:23 AM
(O'Allah, grant me the skill and ability to see the positives from the worst and best situations)
Ameen :)

Shama
05-01-2008, 08:45 AM
Indeed.

I hope we can agree that both men and women are ultimately human and as such both feel pain whether it be at the event of a divorce, death or an accident.

What may differ is the ways in which the genders respond. It may be that a brother is going through a tough time so he goes and shoots some hoops with his buddies to unwind. And it may be that sisters huddle together and talk about their problem at a coffee shop or on AlMaghrib forums. The opposite can be true also since sisters play sports and brothers disuss too.

Moreover, there are angelic wives and beautiful husbands. There are also wife-beaters and wives who consistently play the 'victim' role. And we might see some types more than others because it depends on what we focus on.

When I focus on a statement too much and think something like 'men are abusive', I take that statement and turn it around to something like 'men are kind' or 'women are abusive' or 'I am abusive'. Then I find examples of where these 'turnarounds' are true and I realize 'Saba, you have ignorance at this point and what can I do now to learn more?'

Now, these turnarounds do not negate the original statement. These turarounds broaden my horizons and helps me realize there are so many other possibilites.

Ameen :)
What a profound post mashaAllah

Yaser Birjas
05-01-2008, 11:15 AM
Here are my thoughts on this issue:

http://muslimmatters.org/2008/05/01/the-marriage-project-a-project-nation/

Sally Mahmoud
05-01-2008, 11:46 AM
Here are my thoughts on this issue:

http://muslimmatters.org/2008/05/01/the-marriage-project-a-project-nation/

Masha'Allah! beautifully written.. and your solutions can definitely help shape the future of muslim marriage in america, b/c at this point it seems that many young couples are heading straight to disaster! These solutions can really prepare couples, and improve their chances of success!

here's an excerpt from the article:

"My proposal for a solution, therefore, lies in developing three services:

1. Practical and realistic eHarmony Islamic style ‘Matrimonial Services’ with clear comprehensive criteria.
2. ‘Marriage Coaching’ educational service that springs from Islamic teachings and Muslim culture.
3. Long term ‘Marriage Counseling’ to handle sever scenarios of difficult marriages.

As ambitious and idealistic this project might appear, I do not see it impossible to achieve, but it requires the participation of diverse sectors of the Muslim community in America and the West. This is not a one local Imam job or a single Islamic center or organization work. It’s a polycentric Islamic social movement on a national level that should involve think tanks and experts of multi groups of Imams, psychologists, sociologists, economists, educators, community leaders, parents and many more, and most importantly ‘the youth’. It is ‘A Project Nation’ - a Marriage Project.

Discussing the details of this project is beyond the scope of this article, but I hope by bringing this issue up for discussion we can further contribute to the solution."

tammam
05-01-2008, 02:33 PM
I agree with Sheikh Yasir here on the concept of involving the community, Masjid, and many other people. There's an old Nigerian proverb, which I'm sure many of us have heard before:
"It takes a whole village to raise a child."

Going along with this concept, it takes a whole community to support and maintain a good marriage, and that is going to take some involvement (there's a stigma about this as Sheikh Yasir wrote about in his article). There should be "coaches," but if not that then at least older married couples that are close friends. They can meet, go out, talk on the phone, and offer advice to each other (the experienced wife advising the inexperienced wife and the experienced husband advising the experienced husband). The imam (and many other imams) and many others should also take part in this.

tammam
05-12-2008, 01:55 AM
I know we were talking about getting an "Islamic" marriage or "Islamic" divorce, and I mentioned how we should keep this along with that of American law. Here's an example of what happens:

Man's attempt to circumvent state law is rejected

By Nick Madigan | Sun reporter
May 7, 2008

Saying "I divorce thee" three times, as men in Muslim
countries have been able to do for centuries when
leaving their wives, is not enough if you're a
resident of Maryland, the state's highest court ruled
yesterday.

Yesterday, the Court of Appeals rejected a Pakistani
man's argument that his invocation of the Islamic
talaq, under which a marriage is dissolved simply by
the husband's say-so, allowed him to part with his
wife of more than 20 years and deny her a share of his
$2 million estate.

The justices affirmed a lower court's decision
overturning a divorce decree obtained in Pakistan by
Irfan Aleem, a World Bank economist who moved from
London to Maryland with his wife, Farah Aleem, in
1985.

Both of their children were born in the United States.

In 2003, Aleem's wife filed for divorce in Montgomery
County Circuit Court.

When he filed a counterclaim, he did not object to the
court's jurisdiction over the case, according to the
ruling. But before the legal process could be
completed - and without telling his wife - Aleem went
to the Pakistani Embassy in Washington and invoked the
talaq, in effect attempting to turn jurisdiction of
the case over to a Pakistani court that later granted
him a divorce.

When they were married in Karachi in 1980, Farah Aleem
was 18 and had just graduated from high school. Irfan
Aleem was 29, a doctoral candidate at Oxford
University in England. As is customary, the couple
signed a marriage contract. It obligated Aleem to give
his wife the equivalent of $2,500 in the event of
their divorce. When they split, he did so, and claimed
he owed her nothing more.

Maryland's highest court disagreed.

"If we were to affirm the use of talaq, controlled as
it is by the husband, a wife, a resident of this
state, would never be able to consummate a divorce
action filed by her in which she seeks a division of
marital property," the judges wrote in their decision.

They said the talaq "directly deprives the wife of the
due process she is entitled to when she initiates
divorce litigation."

Priya R. Aiyar, an attorney for Irfan Aleem, said
yesterday from Washington that she had been unable to
reach her client to tell him he had lost his appeal.
Until she does, Aiyar said, she would have no comment
on the case.

Jeffrey M. Geller, a lawyer for Farah Aleem, did not
return a call seeking comment.

Experts in Islamic law and religion who are based in
the U.S. said they agreed with the court's ruling.
Abdullahi An-Na'im, a Muslim scholar and law professor
at Emory University in Atlanta, said "there can only
be one law of the land."

An-Na'im, who wrote Islam and the Secular State:
Negotiating the Future of Shari'a, said that "if
Muslims wish to influence what the law of the state
says, they must do so through the normal political
process and in accordance with civic discourse that is
equally open for debate by all citizens, and not on
the basis of religious beliefs."

Julie Macfarlane, a law professor at the University of
Windsor, Ontario, who has spent two years on a
research project titled "Understanding Islamic Divorce
in North America," said she was surprised that Aleem
had tried to force the notion of talaq on a U.S.
court.

"It's unclear how he even thought he was going to make
a successful legal argument on this point," Macfarlane
said.

Many North American Muslim religious leaders, known as
imams, now treat a woman's request for a divorce as a
right, Macfarlane said, an evolution from the common
scenario under which she may split up with her husband
only if he consents.

"The theory of Islamic law is that the man has the
right and that the woman has to ask for it, but what's
fascinating is that in practice, Islamic divorce is
evolving to fit contemporary mores," she said. "Women
are asking for divorce now. Two decades ago, they were
not."

Muneer Fareed, secretary-general of the Islamic
Society of North America, said that if Aleem had
traveled to Pakistan and invoked his talaq there, it
might have been recognized in a U.S. court under the
concept of comity, under which nations accept the
premise of a law in another country "whether or not we
agree with the law or its spirit."

But Aleem, he said, attempted to circumvent any such
agreements.

"There was a certain lack of faith here because the
husband initiated the talaq after his wife had filed
for divorce," Fareed said. "He was trying to defeat
the ends of justice within the American legal system."

nick.madigan@baltsun.com (nick.madigan%40baltsun.com)

muslimahKM
05-22-2008, 08:46 AM
Well in my view, divorces in west are high because of our lack of compromise. We tend to forget that we are not going to get a perfect match since thereis no one who is perfect. Usually unmarried people build an image of a perfect spouse in their mind and when they are married the spouse doesnot fit into the criterial as they had expected him to be. But this should not be a big deal if one knows how to compromise. I am not saying compromise with an abusive spouse or supporting the idea of deception in marriage. Some people (whether u like it or not) are deceived into a marriage too and it happens in west more often than in east. Especially if a sister/brother goes backhome to find a wife. I have seen many marriages break up not necessarily because the person lied (which is mostly the case) about themselves but also due to the high expectatiosn spouses from backhome have from western lifestyles. Then, lets say if the couple is religiously orientied, there is a lack of compromise. Now in some communities, we have this extreme case where the woman must compromise no matter what!!! But talking about the general case, both spouses do need to learn to compromise at some point in their lives. But how can one know about this? How can we make this situation better? Well education!!!
You tell me, how many parents actually sit down with their children and provide them with techniques and ideas to make a marriage work?
Most parents do not even like talking to their child about marriage (mostly with girls) until a proposal comes and then they will ask her permsission...dats it.
How many programs are offered in our community to educate both spouses to provide eachother their rights?
How many counsellars do we have in our muslim community...???

And this is sad...reason being cuz marriage creates a family..a society...its the foundation of a strong ummah. But we tend to neglect it very mcuh. Remember, Shaytan is extremely happy when a c ouple is divorced (i cant seem to remember the exact hadith)...So we need proper action to avoid this..insh'allah. Proper education is the way to go in my view. Allahualam.

tammam
05-22-2008, 09:29 AM
I agree with your points, but I don't think it's necessarily beneficial to make such assumptions about the "west" and use it in such a monolithic fashion. Creating such dichotomies often prove harmful for those of that feel caught betwen the two, sparking such books as "Clash of Civilization." I don't see this as a "west" or "east" problem but rather a human problem. It's just that there's a much greater stigma for divorce in some Muslim countries as opposed to North America. However, that's just simply my opinion.

muslimahKM
05-22-2008, 09:33 AM
Well I didnot mean it to sound like a matter of west or east...I was merely giving an example. I agree that it is a human problem more evident in non muslim societies.

zuhair.shaath
05-25-2008, 07:53 AM
One of the very famous statements repeated in my love and marriage lectures is when you decide to get married: “Never Make Failure an Option” i.e. do not just try it; commit to it and put all your heart and effort into make it successful. Your spouse does not come with a 30 day return policy or ‘satisfaction guaranteed’, so stop whining and do not waste your time looking for the 1-800 number on your marriage contract…you won’t find it.
Lol... subhanAllah Shaikh, you hit the nail on the head. Whatever happened to the notion of "working" for a lasting relationship? I know this may seem like a strange conecpt to some... but you generally have to work for good things.

hfactor
07-15-2009, 02:03 AM
As salaamu aalaykum,

I haven't read through all the posts I will as soon as I post, inshaAllah. I also mourn when a marriage of a friend doesn't last but everything that happens to a believer is for the best. I don't think people should stay in unhappy marriages just for the sake of avoiding divorce.

Unhappiness starts as an emotional state and later a physical state where the health of the individuals involved begins to deteriorate. Our iman is affected, our ibadah, our purpose in life, our relationship with our parents, friends, how we raise our children all of this is affected and not in a good way. So what do we really achieve by staying in unhappy marriages? Marriages take work, not everything is rosy and there will no doubt be compromises. However, we shouldn't assume that people who have dissolved their marriages have done so to take the easy way out or that they weren't committed enough.

How would we even know if they were "committed enough"? Isn't that delving in to the unseen and motives that only Allah swt knows?

Divorce in the time of the The Prophet (saw) didn't have such a negative stigma as it does now. People back then would divorce and remarry without the compications and stereotypes we face nowadays.

We shouldn't focus on keeping marriages together for the sake of marriage. We should focus on BEING examples to our children who are the future wives and husbands of this ummah. WE need to teach them how to be excellent muslims, excellent human beings, excellent spouses and excellent parents. Notice how I mentioned excellent instead of just good...aim high.

As a revert I came from my mother being widowed, married again, had 2 children, was abused, divorced, married again, was abused, divorced, married again(2007), alhamdullilah things are great for her now. When my mother was married in to an unhappy marriage WE suffered with her. My brothers and I were unhappy. We dreaded coming home because we knew of the sadness in our home. The abuse she was receiving affected us deeply, it affected how we saw the world, it affected how we viewed ourselves, the relationships between men and women as well as marriage. Before I was Muslim I vowed NEVER to marry because I didn't want the drama that came with it. My mom would take out her frustrations on us. My brothers and I wished so many times they would just separate and when they did and remarried they were much happier.

I married at 21 (currently 23) had a child almost two years after marriage and I do try to make it work with my husband. Alhamdulillah he makes it easy for me and May Allah swt save me from the trials that afflicted my mother and the rest of the Muslims ameen. However, if my marriage ever came to the point were I was miserable, my husband was miserable, my son was miserable and nothing we do fixes that then maybe other solutions need to be tried. Whether it be a temporary one where I would go stay with my mother for a week or two or a permanent one. My husband and I have made a vow not to bring divorce into our conversations casually. We have also agreed that if that thought ever does come across that it needs to be addressed with the utmost importance.

We need to remember that people change, situations change, feelings change the only constant is Allah swt. We are human. Even our Prophets (AS) divorced when the marriage was no longer beneficial for either party involved. Yeah, I know it was a long rant.

burgundy
03-07-2010, 03:06 PM
Assalam'alaykum, There is a very popular myth/reality among Muslims.
And that is that when a couple gets divorced, its so much harder for the woman to get remarried.

Now whether this is a myth or reality is debatable. What i want to point out is that often we repeat something that sometimes happen.. so much, that we present it almost as if it's a fact.

I am being very open in sharing this on this forum but insh'alah I hope it can open some people's eyes and have hope , especially for sisters who may be beliving this 'myth'.

Almost a decade ago, I was married, my first marriage, for a few months and my ex husband and I parted ways alhamdulillah. After the marriage ended, I was single for about 3 years and within those 3 years, I received a LOT of proposals the likes of which I never got BEFORE my first marriage. It was well known to all these suitors that I was married previously. and almost al these brothers were from a culture which we deem to be oh so judgemental on divorced women.

Alhamdulillah i've been married now for about 6 years.

Bottom line is, repeating these typs of statements can be depressing and demotivating for alot of people. Allah can make anything happen. Plus, they also stereotype brothers.

Felicity_Muslimah
03-08-2010, 08:07 PM
Assalam'alaykum, There is a very popular myth/reality among Muslims.
And that is that when a couple gets divorced, its so much harder for the woman to get remarried.

Now whether this is a myth or reality is debatable. What i want to point out is that often we repeat something that sometimes happen.. so much, that we present it almost as if it's a fact.

I am being very open in sharing this on this forum but insh'alah I hope it can open some people's eyes and have hope , especially for sisters who may be beliving this 'myth'.

Almost a decade ago, I was married, my first marriage, for a few months and my ex husband and I parted ways alhamdulillah. After the marriage ended, I was single for about 3 years and within those 3 years, I received a LOT of proposals the likes of which I never got BEFORE my first marriage. It was well known to all these suitors that I was married previously. and almost al these brothers were from a culture which we deem to be oh so judgemental on divorced women.

Alhamdulillah i've been married now for about 6 years.

Bottom line is, repeating these typs of statements can be depressing and demotivating for alot of people. Allah can make anything happen. Plus, they also stereotype brothers.I agree with u 100%. I am very close with a sister who got married at a very young age to a man who she eventually found out was ALL talk NO action. Never kept his promises, etc. Alhamdulilah she left him, and after that, she was engaged countless times, but was careful not to make the same mistake again. Everytime she made istakara, sumthing wouldn't work out with that certain brother. In the meantime her ex husband was practically stalking her, crying, and begging her to go back to him. He was her first love, so she made Istakara again, and alhamdulilah their was a sign, and she cut off all ties with him. Alhamdulilah, she stumbled upon a revert who happens to be a virgin who reverted at a very young age.She is now currently married to the revert and is living happily mashallah. The fact that she was married before had ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on the reverts decision and he's even rejected countless unmarried virgin women. I can go on and on about women with children, or have gone through multiple marriages that easily found good husbands.