PDA

View Full Version : question for the guys: powerful muslim women


muslimaah
08-28-2008, 05:11 PM
salam alaikum

I need some male perspective on this. Guys: how do you feel about your wives earning more than you? It's interesting I had this conversation with a couple of my non-muslim friends and they said if a guy really loves his wife, he'll support her in everything she does and the income is going to go into the home account anyway. so does it really matter? Is this problem only with the muslim guys? I think if a man feels insecure when his wife earns more than he does maybe he should take a look inside himself and check that ego. Or am I being influenced by feminism? I mean I know guys are supposed to support their wives and stuff but Islam never stopped women from educating themselves. it's not our fault if our job pays more. pls explain. jazakiAllah kheir.

sireen
08-28-2008, 06:00 PM
Assalamu Alaikum..

I know you asked for a male perspective, but can I pitch in too?

The way I think of it is, I understand that guys need that feeling of Qiwamah, after all, it is the way they were created...and a lot of women also like to be "taken care of"...the way we were created...

But I think that if, there is a case where the woman is earning more, then this should be made clear and she should understand that there are men who have a problem with this...I don't really see it as a fault in men if they have a problem in their wives earning more (and I don't think it's our job in converting those men), but rather a choice for both sides...if a woman is earning more, then she should make this clear and go for the men who don't mind that....

I know a case where the husband supported his wife all the way (to earning a PHD even) but he always preferred that she does not work...he did not mind her getting the education, but he wanted her to concentrate on things like the household and raising the kids...he wanted the educated wife though because he understood that an educated wife might (by the will of Allah) be a better wife/mother in our society (this isn't always the case though)...also, he realizes that she needs it in case of back up (ie. death, divorce, etc.)...so he always told her that she can seek all the education that she wants, but she can put it into action only when needed...
So, if a lady's job pays more, and she does not want to give it up, then she should not go for the men who care : )

Also, what you mentioned about the money going into the "home account"...realize that a woman's earning does not have to go into this account from an Islamic point of view...it is her complete right to do whatever she wants with that money...

Another case I know of, in a household where both parents work, when the man could not support the family due to different reasons and had to stop working for a while, it was the wife who was the "breadwinner"...did this bother this man? Allahu a3lam...but it sure increased his love and respect for her...and if he had not realized that her career is also important and supported her earlier during their marriage, their life later on when he was not working might have been much worse off...

Allahu A3lam...these are just some scenarios I know of...

Anas_
08-29-2008, 11:09 AM
Most men have ego issues.

Here is a good scenario, a wife invents something really cool while staying at home, and decides to sell the idea to companies worldwide, thereby granting her a constant stream of good money, double what her husband makes per year.

Even though she is staying at home, cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids and household. The fact that she has that good income, will make the husband feel insecure. Same would apply if the wife is more knowledgeable. The husband will always feel intimated by her superiority.

So it's not an issue of money, it's the idea of being better ... and not many men can take that.

muslimaah
08-29-2008, 11:12 AM
I know of 3 muslim households where the wives earn more and it seems like their husbands don't mind at all. in fact one of these uncles doesn't earn enough to support the family, his wife has a more stable job.



I know a case where the husband supported his wife all the way (to earning a PHD even) but he always preferred that she does not work...he did not mind her getting the education, but he wanted her to concentrate on things like the household and raising the kids...he wanted the educated wife though because he understood that an educated wife might (by the will of Allah) be a better wife/mother in our society (this isn't always the case though)...also, he realizes that she needs it in case of back up (ie. death, divorce, etc.)...so he always told her that she can seek all the education that she wants, but she can put it into action only when needed...EXACTLY my plan. Now let's wait and see what Allah's plan is :)

muslimaah
08-29-2008, 11:18 AM
As far as I'm concerned, i guess it's better I don't answer since it will bring us on another topic on the role of women in marriage and it's not the purpose here.I understand. but sometimes women are forced to work out of necessity, like providing for her parents if she has no brothers or just becoz she wants to. Isn't there a hadith that goes something like the best income is the one which is earned by one's own hands (paraphrasing in my words)?

mashuduk
08-29-2008, 11:18 AM
salam alaikum

I need some male perspective on this. Guys: how do you feel about your wives earning more than you? It's interesting I had this conversation with a couple of my non-muslim friends and they said if a guy really loves his wife, he'll support her in everything she does and the income is going to go into the home account anyway. so does it really matter? Is this problem only with the muslim guys? I think if a man feels insecure when his wife earns more than he does maybe he should take a look inside himself and check that ego. Or am I being influenced by feminism? I mean I know guys are supposed to support their wives and stuff but Islam never stopped women from educating themselves. it's not our fault if our job pays more. pls explain. jazakiAllah kheir.
Assalamu Alaikum

My wife used to earn more than me before and it didnt make me feel anything other than to support her even more and show my respect as well.

I think man as a being can be very egoistic but if we take the relationship of Khadijah (May Allah be please with her) and Muhammad (Sal Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) we can see that the man who was the greatest of all creation, the man who had all the characteristics did not have any problem then who are we to make problems for our wifes who earn their worth.

many men do feel inferior to their wives if she earns more...Im not sure what the term is but its just a shame we compete with the one person who shares all our feelings, who nurtures or newborns and who keeps us company.

I think its all to do with control...if man has no control he feels he has nothing

May Allah help and guide us and protect us from evil thoughts and jealousy, Ameen

W/Salam

muslimaah
08-29-2008, 11:24 AM
If I was a husband I wouldnt want my wife to work. I would want her to stay at home and raise the kids, take care of the house, cook, clean, etc.
It is the husbands job to provide a stable income for his family, but, if there is a need, then I would let my wife work. But, I can't imagine she would make more than me.

Wallahua'alam.jazakiAllah kheir for being so candid about how you feel. I just want to add something here- I really hate this mentality many guys seem to have- it's the wife's job to cook, clean, take care of the kids et. I mean what are you, an ATM machine? kids need their dads as much as they need mom.

mashuduk
08-29-2008, 11:34 AM
jazakiAllah kheir for being so candid about how you feel. I just want to add something here- I really hate this mentality many guys seem to have- it's the wife's job to cook, clean, take care of the kids et. I mean what are you, an ATM machine? kids need their dads as much as they need mom.

Assalamu Alaikum Sister Muslimaah,

I understand your frustration but what you have to realise is culture has infested into our minds. This cook, clean and taking care of kids has been advised as a safe course for women but you have to look at in a context.

I totally agree that kids need their fathers as much as their mothers as the child see a figure in his father. Mothers provide the love and affection to a child.
My parents weren't happy when they found out that my wife intends to work after marriage and obviously me being their son i didnt want to upset them. However I made du'a to Allah and a few days later my family accepted the proposal and were happy for my wife to work.
My wedding was arranged...just to add that in incase my message sounds otherwise

muslimaah
08-29-2008, 11:34 AM
Most men have ego issues.

Here is a good scenario, a wife invents something really cool while staying at home, and decides to sell the idea to companies worldwide, thereby granting her a constant stream of good money, double what her husband makes per year.

Even though she is staying at home, cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids and household. The fact that she has that good income, will make the husband feel insecure. Same would apply if the wife is more knowledgeable. The husband will always feel intimated by her superiority.

So it's not an issue of money, it's the idea of being better ... and not many men can take that.
But it's not right. rasul Allah didn't mind Khadijah (ra) or Zainab bint jahash (ra) working. He didn't feel 'insecure' or 'inferior'.
Without getting too personal on a 'mixed' forum..I'm one of those women who inshAllah 2-3 years down the road will earn more than many average guys out there. But that does not make me less of a woman. I still need a man to take care and provide for me and someone who 'knows' more than me in deen (it doesn't matter if I know more in dunia education)so he can teach me. My money can go to my parents, charity, starting a school (sadaqah jariah). a man should not feel less of a man if his wife earns more. in fact he should be proud to have an educated wife who cares enough to serve the ummah.

muslimaah
08-29-2008, 11:38 AM
Assalamu Alaikum

My wife used to earn more than me before and it didnt make me feel anything other than to support her even more and show my respect as well.

I think man as a being can be very egoistic but if we take the relationship of Khadijah (May Allah be please with her) and Muhammad (Sal Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) we can see that the man who was the greatest of all creation, the man who had all the characteristics did not have any problem then who are we to make problems for our wifes who earn their worth.

many men do feel inferior to their wives if she earns more...Im not sure what the term is but its just a shame we compete with the one person who shares all our feelings, who nurtures or newborns and who keeps us company.

I think its all to do with control...if man has no control he feels he has nothing

May Allah help and guide us and protect us from evil thoughts and jealousy, Ameen

W/SalammashAllah we need more men like you in the ummah. rasul Allah even used Khadijah 's (ra) money to spread Islam! go figure.

Anas_
08-29-2008, 11:43 AM
But it's not right. rasul Allah didn't mind Khadijah (ra) or Zainab bint jahash (ra) working. He didn't feel 'insecure' or 'inferior'.
Without getting too personal on a 'mixed' forum..I'm one of those women who inshAllah 2-3 years down the road will earn more than many average guys out there. But that does not make me less of a woman. I still need a man to take care and provide for me and someone who 'knows' more than me in deen (it doesn't matter if I know more in dunia education)so he can teach me. My money can go to my parents, charity, starting a school (sadaqah jariah). a man should not feel less of a man if his wife earns more. in fact he should be proud to have an educated wife who cares enough to serve the ummah.
Shaykh Yasir Birjas is currently doing a series about marriage, and he mentioned how some women are over-qualified when it comes to marriage.

You can ask him questions here for the upcoming webcast: http://themarriagerevolution.com/all-the-questions-a-single-muslim-woman-has-about-marriage/

Ibnu Ismail
08-29-2008, 12:21 PM
so here are my two cents: i strongly believe that our generation has adopted a stigma towards our wives working. Granted each situation is different but if there is a neccessity to maintain the family why not? if the goal of the couple is to provide for the family what is the harm if the wife works? and if shes making more money than the husband so what... the husband can benefit from that money too. Its high time we get off our high horses. I also think its important that the children have a proper paternal and maternal upbringing. So much emphasis should not be given to jobs (of either gender) over the proper upbringing of the children. Find a median way to bring in the goods and to take care of the kids.

muslimaah
08-29-2008, 01:23 PM
Alright. I understand where the guys are coming from. you want your wives to stay at home and look after the kids-which indeed is the primary duty of a woman as in Islam. But i'm talking more in terms of a situation where there are no kids involved. will you consider someone for marriage if she earns twice than you do? or as long as you're married without kids? She can stay at home once the kids start coming..I personally can’t imagine leaving my kids and go to work, have them raised by someone else. There’s so much fitan out there, I can’t take that huge risk, not with my (future) kids.

muslimaah
08-29-2008, 01:33 PM
Shaykh Yasir Birjas is currently doing a series about marriage, and he mentioned how some women are over-qualified when it comes to marriage.

You can ask him questions here for the upcoming webcast: http://themarriagerevolution.com/all-the-questions-a-single-muslim-woman-has-about-marriage/ I frankly don't think the word 'over-qualified' exists. education is one of the best things you can do to yourself.

AkheeAB
08-29-2008, 02:18 PM
"Muslim Women! Stay at Home!And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore".

(The Holy Quran 33/33)

Asha
08-29-2008, 02:30 PM
If I was a husband I wouldnt want my wife to work. I would want her to stay at home and raise the kids, take care of the house, cook, clean, etc.
It is the husbands job to provide a stable income for his family, but, if there is a need, then I would let my wife work. But, I can't imagine she would make more than me.

Wallahua'alam.
Why is it so hard to imagine? Just asking but my mom makes more then my father does but in the current situation in this country two incomes is needed. I for one would love to be at stay at home mother and having my biggest concern being if my children are haffidz by 18 and if dinner is made yet. :)


I just hope its not a "Problem" for brothers if their wife is making just as much money, i have friends whos plans in life are to be doctors and still be practicing muslim woman. Their not doing it for the money either its just a passion of theirs...

Wallahu Alam

hibahmac
08-29-2008, 03:15 PM
salam alaikum

I need some male perspective on this. Guys: how do you feel about your wives earning more than you? It's interesting I had this conversation with a couple of my non-muslim friends and they said if a guy really loves his wife, he'll support her in everything she does and the income is going to go into the home account anyway. so does it really matter? Is this problem only with the muslim guys? I think if a man feels insecure when his wife earns more than he does maybe he should take a look inside himself and check that ego. Or am I being influenced by feminism? I mean I know guys are supposed to support their wives and stuff but Islam never stopped women from educating themselves. it's not our fault if our job pays more. pls explain. jazakiAllah kheir.
wa 'alaykum salaam. i'm not a guy, so can't answer the first question. may i comment on other things mentioned?

your non-muslim friends gave the two-part answer of (1) love conquers all and (2) it's all going into one joint pot anyway. the problem with comparing their answers to ours is that the underlying conditions are not equal, specifically in regard to part (2). in the muslim household, a woman's money is her money. there is no automatic assumption of the jointly-held pot or an automatic assumption of all her earnings going into the jointly-held pot should it exist. i do agree with argument (1) in that love applied should ease power inequities in the marriage that are affected by who earns more and who earns less.

about the guy needing to check his ego. is it all about his ego, really? i mean, could even a part of it be about his concern about being just to his wife??? isn't it the case that a man should be able to provide for his wife in the manner/means in which she is accustomed? if she forgoes that, then that's a whole different discussion, but if a man marries a woman who afterwards completes education/training that puts her in a position such that she can provide for herself at a markedly different level than he can for her, isn't it natural that he would feel concerned about her rights as well as his fear that maybe he's not enough of a provider anymore?? i'm sure that on the Day, a brother would want to be able to say that he did right by his wife.

i think the problem comes in when either party doesn't want to live with the consequences of choices they made willingly. if a woman marries a man who does not have the means to provide for her in the way she's accustomed to, then she needs to suck it up and keep her mouth shut and literally treat him no differently or worse when she's tired of being broke and living from paycheck to paycheck or whatever the deprivation may be. a woman needs to be pleased with who the man is on the day she marries him, not marry the potential she thinks she sees in him, for this is but a specter of her imagination that may come to pass, but he must walk his own path. if he's a normal guy, pregnancy #1 will put fire under his rear to increase his earnings or begin to lay down whatever foundation so he can easily increase his income. some men do take longer to catch on though.

if a man marries a woman, very clear about the fact that she's into improving and educating herself and has ambition, then he ought to know that it's more likely than not that she will raise the bar and shouldn't be put out when she does so. he's not to sit there and attack her femininity by saying that she's trying to be a man, or sit there and be petty by demanding part of her money for his 'loss' of her presence in the house (when he's most likely not their either).

sis, i don't think your questions are affected by feminism. rather, this is marriage 101: given the need for there to be income to survive and labor to manage a the home and family as it comes, how will we share that responsibility given our skills, resources, wishes, and way of life? it's a negotiation, and each marriage is not going to be the same in this respect.

i like the examples of Muhammad (salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and his wives (radiAllahu 'anhunna [did i get that plural right??]) others have mentioned in this thread. between the various wives, there are many different arrangements, yes? some (all??) of the wives pushed and were handed an ultimatum over what they could expect in terms of maintenance from Muhammad (salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam). some wives worked, devoting their income toward charity. no matter who had/gave what, though, that didn't stop Muhammad (salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam) from doing housework or the wives from serving him.

safa_709
08-29-2008, 03:38 PM
Asalamu Alaikum Jam'eean.

Mashallah, what an interesting thread.

I just wanted to add that alot of this is being covered in Sheikh Yaser Birjas' live series he is giving out every Tuesday. For those interested, go to www.iwannagetmarried.com (http://www.iwannagetmarried.com) and register, and iA they will send you all the information of each live webcast. You can also submit questions at the end of each lecture.

Anyways, this was brought up I believe in the last webcast. Someone asked a similar question, about the wife working. To summarize, Sheikh YB stated that, normally the breadwinner who's financially supporting the household is given the 'qiwamah' or head/leadership of the family (which makes sense, cuz they are gettin' the dough). In the traditional case, the man primarily takes this position. However, in our times and different culture/society many women also have careers or are in the process of educating themselves for future job prospects (ie: so if they had to face divorce, death, husband unemployment,etc) . In any case, what happens is that when the wife and husband get married they do not place stipulations in the contract. And so, when the wife starts working, it creates friction b/c now she also feels that she has the right to the 'qiwamah' and now you are faced with 2 conflicting leaderships. Who's in charge? Does the housework need to be split, or the child-rearing? Does the wife need to contribute some of her salary to support the family, as the husband sees fit since now she is on the same page as he is? All these problems surface. What needs to be done is that before the marriage during the kitab/nikaah; both parties need to agree upon their future life. If the woman wants to work, and then the man sets a condition that she can only do so if she shares her income------or they both agree she will not work----or they both agree that both work and both share responsibility of housework----etc. This way, the issues are cleared up and agreed upon before the marriage is set; AND its written on the contract so no 'injustice' can occur.

The ultimate decision needs to lie within the couple's hands, and they need to figure out how they would both like to live their lives. And of course they are strongly recommended to attend Fiqh of Love.....:)

WAllahu A'laam.

Disclaimer: The above statements are based on Sh. YB's lecture, but of course they are of my own writing; so if I have commited any mistakes or wrongdoing please forgive and correct me. JZK.

Wasalams.

AkheeAB
08-29-2008, 04:21 PM
wa 'alaykum salaam. i'm not a guy, so can't answer the first question. may i comment on other things mentioned?

your non-muslim friends gave the two-part answer of (1) love conquers all and (2) it's all going into one joint pot anyway. the problem with comparing their answers to ours is that the underlying conditions are not equal, specifically in regard to part (2). in the muslim household, a woman's money is her money. there is no automatic assumption of the jointly-held pot or an automatic assumption of all her earnings going into the jointly-held pot should it exist. i do agree with argument (1) in that love applied should ease power inequities in the marriage that are affected by who earns more and who earns less.

about the guy needing to check his ego. is it all about his ego, really? i mean, could even a part of it be about his concern about being just to his wife??? isn't it the case that a man should be able to provide for his wife in the manner/means in which she is accustomed? if she forgoes that, then that's a whole different discussion, but if a man marries a woman who afterwards completes education/training that puts her in a position such that she can provide for herself at a markedly different level than he can for her, isn't it natural that he would feel concerned about her rights as well as his fear that maybe he's not enough of a provider anymore?? i'm sure that on the Day, a brother would want to be able to say that he did right by his wife.

i think the problem comes in when either party doesn't want to live with the consequences of choices they made willingly. if a woman marries a man who does not have the means to provide for her in the way she's accustomed to, then she needs to suck it up and keep her mouth shut and literally treat him no differently or worse when she's tired of being broke and living from paycheck to paycheck or whatever the deprivation may be. a woman needs to be pleased with who the man is on the day she marries him, not marry the potential she thinks she sees in him, for this is but a specter of her imagination that may come to pass, but he must walk his own path. if he's a normal guy, pregnancy #1 will put fire under his rear to increase his earnings or begin to lay down whatever foundation so he can easily increase his income. some men do take longer to catch on though.

if a man marries a woman, very clear about the fact that she's into improving and educating herself and has ambition, then he ought to know that it's more likely than not that she will raise the bar and shouldn't be put out when she does so. he's not to sit there and attack her femininity by saying that she's trying to be a man, or sit there and be petty by demanding part of her money for his 'loss' of her presence in the house (when he's most likely not their either).

sis, i don't think your questions are affected by feminism. rather, this is marriage 101: given the need for there to be income to survive and labor to manage a the home and family as it comes, how will we share that responsibility given our skills, resources, wishes, and way of life? it's a negotiation, and each marriage is not going to be the same in this respect.

i like the examples of Muhammad (salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and his wives (radiAllahu 'anhunna [did i get that plural right??]) others have mentioned in this thread. between the various wives, there are many different arrangements, yes? some (all??) of the wives pushed and were handed an ultimatum over what they could expect in terms of maintenance from Muhammad (salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam). some wives worked, devoting their income toward charity. no matter who had/gave what, though, that didn't stop Muhammad (salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam) from doing housework or the wives from serving him.
very well written, ma sha Allah...and bythe way, yes the plural form is written right.

muslimaah
08-30-2008, 02:16 AM
"Muslim Women! Stay at Home!And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore".
(The Holy Quran 33/33)
I could see this coming. You're taking the ayah out of context.

muslimaah
08-30-2008, 03:20 AM
i do agree with argument (1) in that love applied should ease power inequities in the marriage that are affected by who earns more and who earns less. and true love is unconditional. If you really love someone, you put their needs and wants before yours. Our Prophet is a perfect example in this regard.

Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu lima tuharrimu ma ahalla Allahu lak tabtaghee mardata azwajika waAllahu ghafoorun raheem. (at-tahreem)

O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allâh has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


about the guy needing to check his ego. is it all about his ego, really? i mean, could even a part of it be about his concern about being just to his wife??? isn't it the case that a man should be able to provide for his wife in the manner/means in which she is accustomed? if she forgoes that, then that's a whole different discussion, but if a man marries a woman who afterwards completes education/training that puts her in a position such that she can provide for herself at a markedly different level than he can for her, isn't it natural that he would feel concerned about her rights as well as his fear that maybe he's not enough of a provider anymore? i'm sure that on the Day, a brother would want to be able to say that he did right by his wife. It's all about what the society thinks, it all comes down to 'honor' and 'control'. it takes a 'real' man not to let his ego get in the way of his marriage. People are always quoting Prophet's (sal Allah alayhi wasallam) mariage to A'ishah (ra). his marriage to Khadijah (ra) was so unique mashaAllah. He didn't feel insecure about marrying a 'businesswoman' while he was only a merchant. He loved her so much that even after her death he was kind and generous to her family and friends.
no offense, but maybe this ramadhan the brothers can try and revive an important but (unfortunately)very rare sunnah i.e not letting their egos get in the way of their realtionship.

muslimaah
08-30-2008, 03:33 AM
so here are my two cents: i strongly believe that our generation has adopted a stigma towards our wives working. Granted each situation is different but if there is a neccessity to maintain the family why not? if the goal of the couple is to provide for the family what is the harm if the wife works? and if shes making more money than the husband so what... the husband can benefit from that money too. Its high time we get off our high horses. I also think its important that the children have a proper paternal and maternal upbringing. So much emphasis should not be given to jobs (of either gender) over the proper upbringing of the children. Find a median way to bring in the goods and to take care of the kids.well said. how can ONE man avoid riba, provide all of the basic human needs, working cars, a mortgage-free home, and school? It is a huge challenge and burden, it should be a joint decision between huband and wife as to how they will work things out BEFORE marriage. and I suggest that the women out there have it put in writing. You dont want the man changing his mind after he was agreed you can work.

muslimaah
08-30-2008, 03:52 AM
just to make it clear- no one is arguing about the role of a husband in marriage. it will always be the man's job to put food on the table. But if the circumstances are such that the wife can support the family better, help with the bills, why not? if she wants to help, it's considered charity. I'm sure most women don't want to marry guys they have to provide for. I'm just trying to understand why muslim men cant handle smart and educated working muslim women.
this brings up another question- if a man is unable to solely provide and support a family, should he be deprived of one of the greatest blessing of this lfe-marriage, wife, kids?

Adib Contractor
08-30-2008, 10:30 AM
I have no problem with women who have a high level of education, or those with ambition. However, I wouldn't want my wife to work in a place with mostly men working there, but this is out of a sense of gheerah, not ego or pride. If she works in a more balanced environment, I would feel much more comfortable.

If she earns more than me, Alhumdulillah. Allah is the source of rizq, and He bestows it upon whom He Wills. I'm not going to show ingratitude to Him by questioning his Wisdom.

I think the key here for all of us to focus on is leading simpler lives and having tawakkul in Allah. Perhaps if we re-evaluate our lives we'll find that what we thought were necessities really aren't necessary after all. Maybe one income is enough, and we should focus on other things. Our skills aren't only to be used in the pursuit of wealth, and this goes for both men and women.

safa_709
08-30-2008, 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by Adib Contractor
I have no problem with women who have a high level of education, or those with ambition. However, I wouldn't want my wife to work in a place with mostly men working there, but this is out of a sense of gheerah, not ego or pride. If she works in a more balanced environment, I would feel much more comfortable.

If she earns more than me, Alhumdulillah. Allah is the source of rizq, and He bestows it upon whom He Wills. I'm not going to show ingratitude to Him by questioning his Wisdom.

I think the key here for all of us to focus on is leading simpler lives and having tawakkul in Allah. Perhaps if we re-evaluate our lives we'll find that what we thought were necessities really aren't necessary after all. Maybe one income is enough, and we should focus on other things. Our skills aren't only to be used in the pursuit of wealth, and this goes for both men and women.

MashaAllah, well put.
Yes, MashAllah. I agree w/ that too.

safa_709
08-30-2008, 01:16 PM
just to make it clear- no one is arguing about the role of a husband in marriage. it will always be the man's job to put food on the table. But if the circumstances are such that the wife can support the family better, help with the bills, why not? if she wants to help, it's considered charity. I'm sure most women don't want to marry guys they have to provide for. I'm just trying to understand why muslim men cant handle smart and educated working muslim women.
this brings up another question- if a man is unable to solely provide and support a family, should he be deprived of one of the greatest blessing of this lfe-marriage, wife, kids?Asalamu Alaykum Muslimaah-

JazakyAllahu khairan for bringing up your questions and concerns.
Although, I agree with some of your points, I dont think you should generalize. Every man and woman has their own opinions and personal preference, and inshAllah if it does not violate the shariah or any general principle of Islam I think its up to each couple to decide for themselves. We should not point fingers at each other, rather we need to work together b/c Islam is not about competition.....its about completion.

I know many men and women who both work and support the family, and are living very well. I also, know of many 'traditional' marriages where the man is the primary breadwinner and the woman is the homemaker; and again they are living happy and well.

What everyone needs to do, is re-evaluate themselves first and foremost. We need to start improving ourselves and questioning our beliefs and ideas, influences....our sincerty and ibadah.....our relationship with Allah (swt). B/c when we strive to become better Muslims and strengthen our relationship with Allah (swt) then inshAllah He will guide us to the best and help us in all aspects of life. The harmony every Muslim couple dreams of, can only be achieved with eman and following the Q/S. When both parties fear Allah (swt) they will treat each other with respect, mawadah, and rahmah, and love......and their decisions ultimately whether they be simple or more complex (ie: wife working or staying home) will take that stance and in the long run be successful, iA.

Sorry for the long post inshAllah it makes sense.

Again May Allah guide us all to see the truth, and aid us in following it. Ameen.

If I have made any mistake please forgive me.

Wasalams.

muslimaah
08-30-2008, 01:38 PM
Asalamu Alaykum Muslimaah-

JazakyAllahu khairan for bringing up your questions and concerns.
Although, I agree with some of your points, I dont think you should generalize. Every man and woman has their own opinions and personal preference, and inshAllah if it does not violate the shariah or any general principle of Islam I think its up to each couple to decide for themselves. We should not point fingers at each other, rather we need to work together b/c Islam is not about competition.....its about completion.

I know many men and women who both work and support the family, and are living very well. I also, know of many 'traditional' marriages where the man is the primary breadwinner and the woman is the homemaker; and again they are living happy and well.

What everyone needs to do, is re-evaluate themselves first and foremost. We need to start improving ourselves and questioning our beliefs and ideas, influences....our sincerty and ibadah.....our relationship with Allah (swt). B/c when we strive to become better Muslims and strengthen our relationship with Allah (swt) then inshAllah He will guide us to the best and help us in all aspects of life. The harmony every Muslim couple dreams of, can only be achieved with eman and following the Q/S. When both parties fear Allah (swt) they will treat each other with respect, mawadah, and rahmah, and love......and their decisions ultimately whether they be simple or more complex (ie: wife working or staying home) will take that stance and in the long run be successful, iA.

Sorry for the long email, and I hope it makes sense.

Again May Allah guide us all to see the truth, and aid us in following it. Ameen.

If I have made any mistake please forgive me.

Wasalams.walaikum assalam. jazakAllah kheir for the reminder sis :) I understand and respect the fact that everyone has their own personal preference. theres absolutely nothing wrong in a brother seeking a homemaker for his wife, but when he justifies his choice using Islam -that's where we have a problem. clearly theres nothing in our deen that stops women from achieving "over-qualified" degrees. I know practicing sisters who are beautiful, balanced etc.. the brothers go running to the hills the sec theyre told she's got a masters or Phd.
I agree with you that we should concentrate more on improving ourselves and place our tawakkul in Allah.

muslimaah
08-31-2008, 04:04 AM
There have been many responses and answers, but I wanted to ask this to the questioner:

How/Why would it benefit you if you knew the answer/s to your question (i.e. what is the practical use for these answers)?

Because sometimes I feel that questions are asked with no goals or purpose behind them except getting alot of responses that dont matter.

Wallahua'alam I'm just trying to understand why some muslim men cant handle smart and educated working muslim women.since I don't interact with guys who are not mahram to me. my own brother thinks like you do but never gives a clear answer. knowing him, it's probably his misinterpretation/misunderstanding of certain areas in Islam . wAllahu 3alam

muslimaah
09-03-2008, 05:29 AM
Shaykh Yasir Birjas is currently doing a series about marriage, and he mentioned how some women are over-qualified when it comes to marriage.

You can ask him questions here for the upcoming webcast: http://themarriagerevolution.com/all-the-questions-a-single-muslim-woman-has-about-marriage/you guys. go and read the last few comments made on there. I refuse to accept the word over-qualified exists. remember zainab bint jahash (ra)? she was one of the most noble and educated (or over-qualified as you guys like it) woman back in that time. she worked and gave away in charity. theres a quote by Aisha (ra) (in my own words) 'zainab was somewhat equal to me in the eyes of rasul Allah. i've never seen a woman so God fearing and kind to the poor'
Aisha (ra) herself was so intelligent mashaAllah. she asked rasul Allah questions everytime he said something. did he feel insecure? did he want to be in control? did he say 'shut up, dont ask qs do as I say, i'm the leader'!?
maybe it's the problem of ego in the brothers. maybe you guys need to re-evaulate yourselves no offense. sisters like to gossip and brothers like to be in control-that's our weakness- we should try and overcome inshaAllah.

also a quick clarfication- I didnt mean to undermine the stay at home moms. i was only trying to understand why some muslim men dont like the idea of marrying women more educated than they are. wAllahu 3alam

AkheeAB
09-03-2008, 08:37 AM
The choice facing our sister is a choice between what is right and what is wrong, between what is halaal and what is haraam.

Hence we can only advise our sister to protect the best thing that she possesses, which is her religion and chastity, and to stay with her family so as to protect herself and be among those who will protect her. Perhaps Allaah will make it easy for her to find work that is acceptable according to sharee’ah, and a righteous husband. We give her the glad tidings of the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever gives up something for the sake of Allaah, Allaah will compensate him with something better than that.” (Classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani – may Allaah have mercy on him – in Hijaab al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah).

How many brothers and sisters have left their work– even when they were earning lots of money – leaving for the sake of Allaah after learning that the environment they were in went against Islamic rulings, then Allaah opened many ways for them and gave them a bountiful provision, and guided their hearts to something better than they had been following before.

Striving for the purpose of this transient world at the expense of one’s religion is not something that we accept for our sisters or daughters, or for the sister who is asking this question.

That does not mean anything if it also brings the wrath of Allaah. It is bad enough that you are with non-mahram men at work, let alone that you are in a country where there are no MuslimsThe Islamic texts indicate that it is haraam for women to mix with men, to travel without a mahram and to settle among the kuffaar.

Um Tammer
09-03-2008, 09:50 AM
It is really not easy working outside the home and raising a family. That is why women are given the option. Finding balance is challenging. And for those women who stay home, this society does not support us. It takes a lot of self-motivation.

Anas_
09-03-2008, 11:32 AM
you guys. go and read the last few comments made on there. I refuse to accept the word over-qualified exists.

maybe it's the problem of ego in the brothers. maybe you guys need to re-evaulate yourselves no offense. sisters like to gossip and brothers like to be in control-that's our weakness- we should try and overcome inshaAllah.
Shaykh Yasir mentioned how it's not about being "right" or "wrong" on this issue. It's the reality of the situation.

muslimaah
09-03-2008, 12:58 PM
The choice facing our sister is a choice between what is right and what is wrong, between what is halaal and what is haraam.

Hence we can only advise our sister to protect the best thing that she possesses, which is her religion and chastity, and to stay with her family so as to protect herself and be among those who will protect her. Perhaps Allaah will make it easy for her to find work that is acceptable according to sharee’ah, and a righteous husband. We give her the glad tidings of the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever gives up something for the sake of Allaah, Allaah will compensate him with something better than that.” (Classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani – may Allaah have mercy on him – in Hijaab al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah).

How many brothers and sisters have left their work– even when they were earning lots of money – leaving for the sake of Allaah after learning that the environment they were in went against Islamic rulings, then Allaah opened many ways for them and gave them a bountiful provision, and guided their hearts to something better than they had been following before.

Striving for the purpose of this transient world at the expense of one’s religion is not something that we accept for our sisters or daughters, or for the sister who is asking this question.

That does not mean anything if it also brings the wrath of Allaah. It is bad enough that you are with non-mahram men at work, let alone that you are in a country where there are no MuslimsThe Islamic texts indicate that it is haraam for women to mix with men, to travel without a mahram and to settle among the kuffaar.brother, it's not permitted for men to mix with women too. we ARE living in this country so we have to face the situation and deal with it. at the same time we also have to accept it's wrong to work in mixed environments but theres really no other choice. accepting wrong in your heart is weakest form of faith..but at least it's a form of faith. subhan Allah we are so used to seeing the fitnah here, so desensitized..that it doesnt even seem wrong anymore. but i guess thats another topic in itself.

muslimaah
09-03-2008, 02:28 PM
It is really not easy working outside the home and raising a family. That is why women are given the option. Finding balance is challenging. And for those women who stay home, this society does not support us. It takes a lot of self-motivation.true. its great if you've a support system.

muslimaah
09-03-2008, 02:31 PM
Shaykh Yasir mentioned how it's not about being "right" or "wrong" on this issue. It's the reality of the situation.true. theres a difference in how things are and how they're supposed to be.

a2z
09-03-2008, 03:55 PM
ok so lets try to stick to the original q, WHAT IF a woman were to stay at home, and she's a stay home TEACHER, and she gets ONLY female students, and yet she makes more money then her husband...IN THAT CASE...would it bother the husband?

Adib Contractor
09-03-2008, 04:33 PM
I wouldn't mind if my wife was a doctor or a CEO... as long as her roles as a Muslimah, wife, and mother are not compromised. Money doesn't matter to me. The same goes for my roles as a Muslim, husband, and father.

Why do so many people generalize what "men" think? Keep in mind that such generalizations include the prophets, sahaba, and scholars, not to mention the brothers that don't share that opinion... and the same goes for generalizing "women".

safa_709
09-03-2008, 04:41 PM
Why do so many people generalize what "men" think? Keep in mind that such generalizations include the prophets, sahaba, and scholars, not to mention the brothers that don't share that opinion... and the same goes for generalizing "women".I agree. I dont like generalizations at all................most of the time.

muslimaah
09-03-2008, 05:50 PM
there were no generalizations. again, I was only trying to understand why SOME men have seem to forgotten the sunnah of being humble.

I think it would depend on the wives expectations of the man. If the man can maintain a reasonable household then it should be ok. If the wife makes more money and she then gets in her mind she wants to live at a higher standard of living and wants her husband too live at that leve also which is above his means or his wants/needs then there could be a problem.

I think it also depends on how the women acts, if she acts like she runs the place then there would be a problem.

My personal experience is that alhamdulillah I'm able to help people sometimes and if someone wants to buy me a gift or pay for my dinner once in awhile then it's best not to argue and just let them give and make dua for them.

My personal preferrence would be for the husband and wife to both work for a few years, live very modest save up 100K and make hijra or buy a house outright.

I also think reading things black and white are different then when you are living them. If you are married then you both support each other.

I also think the wife should be the primary person who raises the children at least for the first 2 years, in that if she worked it would be at the most part time. as far as chores if it was something outside the house I'd be more comfortable doing them and then in the house both people do what they have to do. I'm low maintenance.

Allah is Al Razzaq both financial and ILM so the more ilm you are provided the less descretionary buys you need.
nice answer. jazakumAllahu kheir
wasalamu alaikum

Mubarak
09-04-2008, 03:21 AM
ok so lets try to stick to the original q, WHAT IF a woman were to stay at home, and she's a stay home TEACHER, and she gets ONLY female students, and yet she makes more money then her husband...IN THAT CASE...would it bother the husband?
The answer to that question is...No! Not at all.

Mubarak
09-04-2008, 03:28 AM
Shaykh Yasir Birjas is currently doing a series about marriage, and he mentioned how some women are over-qualified when it comes to marriage..
This is an interesting point..hmmmm...

Sally Mahmoud
09-07-2008, 12:49 AM
these discussions are always so interesting..

here's the way i look at it- a young woman should do her best to exploit her abilities to secure a good degree and the create the best potential life for herself..why.. b/c life happens! Men who are supposed to take care of you die, become old/sick/disabled, have different priorities.. or may disagree with what "taking care of you" means..

If it happens that you make more than your husband, alhamdulillah.. that is more money for you to save up (you will be out of work, n' contributing less to social security/401k than he is when you think of the time taken off for childbearing/rearing..etc so you will need the "surplus" $$ in the long run).. that is money for you to help family and relatives with, to fund charitable causes that are important to you..etc..

At a conference there was an important piece of advice that was shared which is your household should be made to run on only 1 income- HIS. that way when you decide to take time off to have kids..etc. the household wont feel the pinch of new financial constraints.

Now once the kids are grown, and you're bored, you have that good degree to fall back on!! we all know wonderful women who come to that point in their lives, and that is truly when i expect my degree to pay off.. b/c I can work to pass time, and get paid little, or work using my____degree and be compensated accordingly..

Earnings should never be a competition between spouses.. as muslim women we graciously accept the generosity of our husbands and never use our earning power for leverage in the relationship.. i think that would hurt more than help! and like i said, it all evens out in the end once you look at the long-term picture..

zuhair.shaath
09-11-2008, 07:43 AM
One of the ways men calculate manhood and success is by their salary (subconsciously). If the wife made more money then some guys might have a problem with that, however it's no coincidence that the men who do concur this problem and live to deal with it also have wives that don't rub it in nor do they bring it up. Like every dispute resolution, it takes two.

AkheeAB
09-11-2008, 12:50 PM
Allah increases the provision for whom He wills, and straitens (it for whom He wills), and they rejoice in the life of the world, whereas the life of this world as compared with the Hereafter is but a brief passing enjoyment.

( سورة الرعد , Ar-Rad, Chapter #13 (http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=13&translator=5), Verse #26 (http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=13&translator=5#26))

ikbenidil
10-09-2008, 08:45 PM
lol sis, i think we women sometimes can actually be our own enemies because how are u gonna survive working and like taking care of the house at the same time as well much work is involved, if it was not for where i come from i would have relaxed and enjoyed the quiet like, but due to some circumstances i need to work and help my country one day insha allah

hibahmac
10-09-2008, 11:05 PM
lol sis, i think we women sometimes can actually be our own enemies because how are u gonna survive working and like taking care of the house at the same time
so much discussion of this issue comes from a black-and-white perspective, that if you do this then you absolutely can't do that.

yes, a woman can market her time and KSAs (knowledge, skills, aptitudes) for money and still like keeping her home environment to her standard...because she's worth it and is worthy of it, nevermind the fact that with the right intention caring for the home is worship. taking care of the home environment is a form of self-care and it benefits everyone else in the home too.

honestly, if you see yourself as deserving then you don't mind working for it, and what others are or are not doing don't matter as much because its about you taking care of yourself before Allah.

the struggle comes in governing one's energy and in investing proper planning, but you must be your own best friend and be merciful to your own self so that there's nothing to dislike in caring for yourself & family. you can still achieve this while needing/wanting to work.

if you find the dislike there, then that's just a sign that you're not leveraging your time and resources enough to make it easier on yourself. crockpots (slow cookers), pressure cookers, microwaves, timers, children, husbands, and friends/family...there are many options we have in getting it done and done acceptably. overall, planning is the key.

ikbenidil
10-14-2008, 03:21 PM
so much discussion of this issue comes from a black-and-white perspective, that if you do this then you absolutely can't do that.

yes, a woman can market her time and KSAs (knowledge, skills, aptitudes) for money and still like keeping her home environment to her standard...because she's worth it and is worthy of it, nevermind the fact that with the right intention caring for the home is worship. taking care of the home environment is a form of self-care and it benefits everyone else in the home too.

honestly, if you see yourself as deserving then you don't mind working for it, and what others are or are not doing don't matter as much because its about you taking care of yourself before Allah.

the struggle comes in governing one's energy and in investing proper planning, but you must be your own best friend and be merciful to your own self so that there's nothing to dislike in caring for yourself & family. you can still achieve this while needing/wanting to work.

if you find the dislike there, then that's just a sign that you're not leveraging your time and resources enough to make it easier on yourself. crockpots (slow cookers), pressure cookers, microwaves, timers, children, husbands, and friends/family...there are many options we have in getting it done and done acceptably. overall, planning is the key. IAM ASSUMING THAT U ARE A SISTER I TOTALLY AGREE WITH U SIS BUT HOWEVER SOMETIMES IT CAN BE WORK OVERLOAD THAT IS THE ONLY THING I WAS POINTING OUT. FOR EXAMPLE I FIND IT UNFAIR THAT I DO ALOT MORE WORK THAN MY BROTHERS AT HOME DUE TO GOING TO UNI,AFTER THAT WORK AND STILL HELP ALOT AT HOME. SOMETIMES WE CAN SAY TO OURSELVES WE CAN DO EVERYTHING BUT WE ARE NOT SUPERWOMES ARE WE. ME PERSONALLY IAM DEFINITELY GONNA WORK THE REST OF MY LIFE INSHA ALLAH IF ALLAH GRANTS ME A JOB DUE TO WERE I COME FROM STILL GOT ALOT OF RELATIVES THERE AND THEY NEED SOMEONE WHO CAN TAKE CARE OF THEM INSHA ALLAH.

hibahmac
10-15-2008, 03:16 AM
Firstly, the thread title "powerful muslim women", I mean, why is it that we call the working women the powerful ones? A woman can be educated, not working, stay at home mom, and still be verrrrrrrry powerful.
what an excellent point sis 'siratul mustakeem', mashaAllah! as i read what you said, i was like this is what has bothered me about this thread the whole time!!

another thing: "stay at home mom" doesn't mean that you are unemployed. many women take the route of entrepreneurship as a way to employ their skills out of necessity or want but on their own terms and within the framework of primary responsibilities.

muslimaah
10-15-2008, 04:10 AM
Firstly, the thread title "powerful muslim women", I mean, why is it that we call the working women the powerful ones? A woman can be educated, not working, stay at home mom, and still be verrrrrrrry powerful.this.


Just about the title: "powerful muslim women", I think this is the problem when we start seeing women working and having a lot of money as "powerful". Does it mean that the one who does not work is "weak" ? i know it's not what you meant, but we are taking the value scale of the West: your value, your power is measured only by your money. can I also ask why a working women is automatically labelled a feminist? a muslimah who works to serve the ummah or support her family, can you call her a feminist?


Secondly, I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with a man's ego. And I DO believe that the sister who posted the question has gotten a bit much of the Feminine taste of the west(Trust me, I used to think that when I was younger as well). And I agree with the brother who said it has to do with the sense of gheerah for the woman earning more, not the guy's ego.if that's truly the case then where was our Prophet's ego when his wives worked? Ive got lots of respect for a guy who doesnt want a working wife so she can stay at home and take care of the kids than the guy who can think only of his fragile ego and warped up sense of 'being a man'.

I would want to work only if I NEED to work, and that is before kids. I really think that we, as muslim women, should take a step back and look at the importance of being a muslim woman in our lives. I think that if enough importance was given and value was given to the homemakers, then everyone would want to do. IF we go based off what society thinks, we will get NOWHERE. I mean, I really thought for a while that I want to work and all that, but I realized that when the time comes, your place is at home, and I know every women likes to be taken care of, so if you have the opportunity, please seize it. If you have no need to work and you are working, then to me personally, it's just wasted effort. I think more of that effort should be geared towards raising kids, and taking care of the home, which is a big enough job already, and more fun than anything else. (to me at least. :)).

Aishah (ra) had an amazing knowledge about medicine. the ummahtul mu'mineen helped during the wars. isnt that an inspiration enough to serve the community? yea i know you can do that from home as well. personal preferences/circumstances, different way of looking at things, and achieveing our goals in life . to each his /her own.

Generous_1
10-15-2008, 10:02 PM
I mean, I really thought for a while that I want to work and all that, but I realized that when the time comes, your place is at home, and I know every women likes to be taken care of, so if you have the opportunity, please seize it. If you have no need to work and you are working, then to me personally, it's just wasted effort. I think more of that effort should be geared towards raising kids, and taking care of the home, which is a big enough job already, and more fun than anything else. (to me at least. :))I know enough sisters use marriage and taking care of the home as a cop out to not go to school or pursue employment. Most muslim guys will not tolerate this kind of attitude in their children, so why act as an enabler for the wife? Taking care of the home and children is a huge responsibility but what about developing yourself as a person?

hibahmac
10-16-2008, 12:23 AM
I know enough sisters use marriage and taking care of the home as a cop out to not go to school or pursue employment. Most muslim guys will not tolerate this kind of attitude in their children, so why act as an enabler for the wife? Taking care of the home and children is a huge responsibility but what about developing yourself as a person?
excellent point Generous_1! my answer: enablers get a payoff from enabling, and this applies whether they know of the cop out or not. a man only knows what the woman reveals of herself and vice-versa, and a man always benefits from a woman who proactively takes on the bulk of home/family-caring.

even if a guy knows of the cop out and wouldn't want that trait in their children, the question becomes how would the children know of the cop out on her part unless she makes it apparent to them? there might be room for that kind of frank discussion between mother and daughter as adults, but even then i don't see that except to relay a cautionary tale.

i don't think developing oneself and marriage/motherhood are mutually exclusive. my experience has been that marriage/motherhood has made separating whim & fancy from what is truly authentic easier because my time is a premium...after right/wrong calculation, the responsibility of family serves as an additional criterion to discern what is worthwhile and what isn't. anything else i include in my life must be truly worthwhile and serve as a stepping stone to the next evolution. likewise, every time i've included extraneous things in distraction, i've been corrected through unwanted consequences, alhamduliLlah.

Nafsul-Awwaamah
10-16-2008, 06:34 AM
I know enough sisters use marriage and taking care of the home as a cop out to not go to school or pursue employment. Most muslim guys will not tolerate this kind of attitude in their children, so why act as an enabler for the wife? Taking care of the home and children is a huge responsibility but what about developing yourself as a person? A cop out? How is a perceived priveledge interpreted as a cop out? Maybe these sisters don't want to be in the kaafir atmosphere of colleges and jobs? Maybe they'd rather further their Islamic knowledge rather than pointless secular ones. Maybe they get married to guard their chastity. Maybe they really want children and how else are they going to get them? Yes there are those who just think "oh I'll stay at home" but hey, if they don't want to work, they don't have to. If she wants to work, let her work. If she doesn't, don't force her. Its that simple. And what mother discourages their child to go to school? I've never heard of a Muslim mother denying her children the right Allaah has ordained for them in regards to seeking ilm.
Ooo, working and getting an education are two very different things. Education is something very important to have, after that, working is something you can choose to decide on when you're married and want to take care of the home. If there are women like that, then they should work on their education, which develops you as a person, and then hopefully they can instill good values other than the ones listed there ^^(that 'attitude' won't go anywhere). Who said working only develops you as a person? Doesn't proper knowledge, and 'ilm of the deen develop you as a person? I don't think going to school and employment should be in the same category in that sense.I always love your posts sister sm. I totally agree with you. There are people with degrees who are the dumbest people in the world. Likewise there are many women who have never been to college and know so much. SubhanAllah its crazy. Its a piece of paper. Kind of like how so many "Experts on Islam" have degrees from non-Muslim sources. Pffft.

AkheeAB
10-16-2008, 08:49 AM
bismiAllah alrRahmani alrRaheem

all praises are for Allaah taabra wa taa'ala

Personally I do not think a Muslim sister has/should to work outside of her family home to make money if her husband tells her to or if she does not have to because her husband is obliged to spend on her since she is not obliged to spend on herself. (Allaah is the source of strengths)

Also, if this work of hers involves something haraam, namely mixing with men? Then she should not obey him with regard to this, because there is no obedience to any created being if it involves disobedience towards the Creator. He should be reminded that he is the man and is her protector and maintainer because he spends on her from his means. It is not right for him to let greed for worldly things and the desire for more money make him ask his wife to do work which she is not obliged to do according to sharee’ah, or to expose her to fitnah (temptation) for the sake of the transient conveniences of this world.

For example, I was raised by a single mother in the kat twenty plus years with 5 children. Since I can remember, my mothjer has taken courses to achieve herself certificates, she has and is still working, plus she has/still takes care of all the household responsiblities all by the mercy of Allaah taa'ala and on her own. (ps: i do not even know the definition of a father anymore because I think she has earned the title of both responsibilites wa alhamdu liAllah).
I think most of the time it depends on the situation, and ther person(s). Like they say, different strokes for different folks, just as long as thsese choices do not against the law and earn the wrath {anger} of Allaah taa'al. (Wisdom=putting/saying the right places/things in/on right time)

In addittion, since we live in a non muslm society a lot of measures would need to be looked at carefully as a couple to come up with conclusions that will please Allaah taa'al and satisfy their situation because the types of jobs and school here will affect a persons relationship (ie: iman) with their lord unless the person is constanly trying to get close to his Lord, by learning about him and his religion and by using these teachings of Islam as a shield and portection from this socities fitnah until we ask Allaah taa'al to make an easy way for us from this society. But much individual efforts is required from all us to change our current situaion and this is to chose Allaah taa'al over all of our desires.

Secondly, since i am not married, but if If I was. Personally, I would perfer that my wife does stay at her home {most of the time} and all the time, with our family. This will allow me to take care of our outside/inside{my family} responsiblities. However, if she does want to work, then a part time job would not keep her away from her, since this can be a useful asset to her in all aspects of her life (enjoying the outdoors by not being at home all the time, extra finance, etc). Or, she could pursue to learn teachings of the Qur'an and teach the little ones in the neighbourhood to contribute to Islam. We need to start perfering Allaah taa'al over all of our deisires so that we may earn his pleasure.

Thirdly, with regards to a muslim women making more than her spouse, my opinion is firstly and foremost the couple should thank and glorify their Lord, may he be Glorified and Exalted for this great blessing he has bestowned upon them that most people don't have. Secondly, the husband should be aware that this blessing is only from his Lord even though his wife achieved this throuh/with the sources he has has provided for her. Thirdly, if this is till botheirng him, personally I believe this brother has a high ego, insecurity issues, etc and this could possibly be a test from his Lord. This test could be a test of pride/arrogance (inwardly/outwardly) which needs to be worked on and cured before this person meets his lord. (the prophet peace be upon him said whoever has an atoms weight of {inwardly&outwardlypride will not enter paradise). Allaah taa'al is our provider and the best it, so we should not be thinking like this even though we get what we work for most of the time. It is Allaah taa'al that is allowing every single thing to happen by his will, Subhana. This just shows we are working bakwards in our pursuit to paradise and the pleasure of our Lord. Rather, we should try to compete against our righteous predecessors work (even though we fully can't) and by imitating our beloved Prophet Muhammd (peace and blessings on him.) achievements compared to what we see with our eyes in this life, because I guarantee you that death will destroy all of these desires of ours even though society has set high expectations for us but so does our Lord. These are the people that Allaah taa'al is pleased with and we have been told this. We have not been told that "we" have earned the pleasure of our Lord, so let us please hasten to achieve this status with our Lord and compete in taqwa/piety. Lastly, the more a couple is working on building a relationship with their Lord at all times (24/7) by trying to earn his pleasure and his Paradise. The more we thank Allaah, and give/show him the gratitude that he deserves, the more be satisfied and contempt. Essentially Allaah taa'al is our provider, he is the best of it, and we never know what we will receive or loose today.

If this writting of mine , has offended anyone, please forgive me and if it does not contribute beneficially in any way then anyone is free to erase it. i just thought that I may relate to this thread. wa Allahu taa'ala a'alim wa salatu wa salam ala rasulana.

sireen
10-16-2008, 11:07 AM
A cop out? How is a perceived priveledge interpreted as a cop out? Maybe these sisters don't want to be in the kaafir atmosphere of colleges and jobs? Maybe they'd rather further their Islamic knowledge rather than pointless secular ones. Maybe they get married to guard their chastity. Maybe they really want children and how else are they going to get them? Yes there are those who just think "oh I'll stay at home" but hey, if they don't want to work, they don't have to. If she wants to work, let her work. If she doesn't, don't force her. Its that simple. And what mother discourages their child to go to school? I've never heard of a Muslim mother denying her children the right Allaah has ordained for them in regards to seeking ilm.
I always love your posts sister sm. I totally agree with you. There are people with degrees who are the dumbest people in the world. Likewise there are many women who have never been to college and know so much. SubhanAllah its crazy. Its a piece of paper. Kind of like how so many "Experts on Islam" have degrees from non-Muslim sources. Pffft.I would be careful saying "pointless secular ones". I believe any degree can help Muslims somehow regardless of what it is...In order to establish an Ummah (a strong one) we need people from all walks of life who know how to do just about everything out there...Besides, I think we really do need more females in many fields of life out there (random example: healthcare)...I would rather have to deal with a female than a male in my daily life...it's all about a person's niyyah in the end..

Seeking knowledge...can never be pointless...if the person has a goal and determination, they can do wonders with what they know...

And as a side note, this may be a personal opinion, but I think a sister who persued some sort of education will be better fit to raise her kids up, to teach them when they need help in school, and to be aware of what is out there, of Allah's creation,...I have found that my "secular" knowledge has only helped me become a better practicing muslimah who can give back MORE productively to my community...

If I was to stay at home, I doubt I would have the knowledge on how to talk in a gathering, give a halaqa, heck even create a powerpoint presentation, write something that actually sounds good, drive places to help the mosque in something...etc...all of these things are life tasks I have developed through my "secular" knowledge and, alhamdulillah, used for the sake of Allah at some point in my life...

waAllahu ta3ala a3lam..

3abir_sabeel
10-16-2008, 12:21 PM
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ
(النساء: 34)
[34] Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means...


Doesn't say woman shouldn't work, but don't you think it would basically be taking away half of what makes a man qawam.

Saba Hashmat
10-16-2008, 12:23 PM
There are people with degrees who are the dumbest people in the world. Lol..:D

muslimaah
10-16-2008, 02:31 PM
.???? I said that it's because some men have the feeling of gheerah ( protective jealousy), NOT egos that have them think this way. This should not be taken offensively, in fact, one should feel proud of having someone feel that for them. And 'being a man' is a feeling that every man should feel, I don't blame them for it. Men should go out and do the work outside, it's their responsibility!no one is arguing over a man's position in the family. it'll always be the husband's job to put food on the table, clothes on the back, and so on.

And I wish that we could all live in the times that Aishah (ra) was living in. But times have changed, and you have to pay attention to where you're living now. Islam is timeless. for all places until the Last day.

The huge reason I don't want to work is because I would have to work with men and have to explain to them and blah blah blah. I just really would rather love working in a muslim country by islamic guidelines(just like you're quote just said!!), but not all women have that choice, therefore, it's a lot better that she stay at home and do what she can there. It doesn't limit her goals, or shouldn't suffocate her dreams, it should really uplift her into being the best muslimah she can be. Also, it does depend on who you're marrying, because not everyone thinks this way. personally I love working as it challenges my intellect. besides the 'silent dawah' it gives, especially as a muslim woman in hijab/niqab.
I understand the situation changes when one gets married and has kids to look after. basically if youre going to continue working then you and your partner will have a lot of hard work to do and the division of labor at home should be more balanced and fair.

muslimaah
10-16-2008, 02:35 PM
Maybe they'd rather further their Islamic knowledge rather than pointless secular ones. Islam and the Pursuit of Worldly Knowledge
|Sheikh Salman al-Oadah|

Many young men and women in our colleges and universities have abandoned the pursuit of studies like medicine and engineering, because they presume that such studies will not benefit them in the Hereafter. I have heard them complain that their studies are a curse upon them and it would be better for them to study Islamic knowledge than what they are wasting their lives pursuing.

These young people are operating under the misconception that the study worldly knowledge and technology are somehow in conflict with Islam. They feel that their worldly studies keep them away from being truly devout and close to Allah. At the very least, they feel that the pursuit of such knowledge is not encouraged by Islam and that there would be no sin or censure upon the Muslims for neglecting it.

Islam calls us to seek knowledge in the broadest sense of the word. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim.” [ Sunan Ibn Mâjah ]

Islam gives preference to a knowledgeable person over an ignorant one. Allah says: “Say: ‘Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know?'” [ Sűrah al-Zumar : 9]

There are around 750 verses in the Qur'ân that encourage us to think about the universe that surrounds us and all that has been created within it and placed at our disposal. The study of the universe is indisputably the domain of the natural sciences.

Allah says the following:

“Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the Earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people who have sense.” [ Sűrah al-Baqarah : 164]

“Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the Earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are indeed signs for people who have understanding.” [ Sűrah Âl `Imrân : 190]

“And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the Earth, and the variations in your languages and your colors: verily in that are Signs for those who know.” [ Sűrah Rűm : 22]

“It is He who makes the stars (as beacons) for you, that ye may guide yourselves, with their help, through the dark spaces of land and sea: We detail Our signs for people who know.” [ Sűrah al-An`âm : 97]

The first verse to be revealed to the Prophet (peace be upon him) was a verse commanding him to read. For this reason, scholars have declared knowledge to be the first obligation held upon a legally accountable person. The first thing that a person is required to have knowledge of, of course, is Allah, His religion, and His revelation. However, this obligation ultimately embraces all useful knowledge, since the first step in any area is to have knowledge about it.

How can it be acceptable for us as Muslims – the people commanded before anything else to read – to go down the road of ignorance and give up competing with the other nations of the Earth in the pursuit of knowledge? How can we do so especially at a time when they are the ones excelling in every field of human knowledge? They are far in the lead, while our heritage and our faith should be propelling us ahead.

What bridge will help us to span the distance between the pure truth of our sacred texts and the miserable state of ignorance and misunderstanding that besets the lives and the mindset of the Muslim world?

Knowledge is of two kinds: religious knowledge and worldly knowledge.

Worldly knowledge includes all branches of knowledge by which we acquire through our human experience and interaction with the universe that surrounds us. We acquire this knowledge by investigating and contemplating the patterns and laws that exist in nature.

The study of science and technology is of utmost importance to the upliftment of nations and civilizations. The Muslim world is in desperate need of this knowledge. No one who has eyes can fail to see how weak we are in this area, in spite of the emphasis that Islam puts upon it. Allah says in more than one place in the Qur'ân: “It is He who has produced you from the Earth and settled you therein.”

Allah is telling us that he has made us to live on Earth for the duration of our lives and we are supposed to develop it, cultivate it, and thrive in it. How are we expected to do this if we do not know what will better our lives and what will bring harm to us?

Allah says: “And when the Prayer is finished, then may you disperse through the land, and seek of the bounty of Allah: and celebrate the praises of Allah often that you may prosper.” [ Sűrah al-Jumu`ah : 10] Here Allah is talking about commerce, investment, and economic development.

Allah says: “It is He who has made the Earth manageable for you, so traverse through its tracts and enjoy of the sustenance which He furnishes: but unto Him is the Resurrection.” [ Sűrah al-Mulk : 15] This verse alludes to agriculture, land development, and traveling in search of Allah's bounty.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If the Final Hour arrives while one of you has a sapling in his hand and he can finish planting it before standing up, then he should do so.” [ Musnad Ahmad ]

In the field of medicine, the Prophet said: “Every disease has a remedy. If the remedy is applied to the disease, the patient will be cured by Allah's permission.” [ Sahîh Muslim ]

He also said: “Allah did not send down a disease without sending down a cure for it.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî ]

A desert dweller once asked the Prophet (peace be upon him): “What type of people are the best?”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “The best of them in moral character.”

The man then asked: “O Messenger of Allah, should we seek medical treatment?”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “Seek medical treatment, for truly Allah as not send down a disease without sending down a cure for it. Those who have knowledge of the cure know it, and those who are ignorant of it do not.” [ Musnad Ahmad ]

The Prophet (peace be upon him) referred to medical knowledge as knowledge and to a lack of it as ignorance. He encouraged us to use our minds and our resources to seek out the cures to the diseases that plague us by telling us that those cures are out there for us to discover and make use of.

How can a people who profess this religion and follow these texts be content to remain steeped in illiteracy and ignorance while other nations who do not share our legacy are progressing by leaps and bounds?

This is something surprising indeed!

The pursuit of any field of useful worldly knowledge, in principle, is an obligation that does not fall on everyone's shoulders. As long as a sufficient number of people in society take it up, everyone else can follow other pursuits. However, today it is becoming more and more of an individual obligation. We live in an age of unprecedented technological challenge and we are witnessing a Muslim incapacity that is quite startling.

The nations of the West are improving their knowledge and their application of it night and day in order to dominate the nations that surround them. We have been reduced to the lamentable state of dependency, especially in the fields of medicine, engineering, and manufacturing technology.

It is not possible for the Muslim world to be an example for others to follow unless it is strong and able to move forward. Many people are turned off by Islam because of the sorry state that they see the Muslims in – their economic backwardness, the misconceptions and falsehoods that plague them, and their intellectual and spiritual shortcomings.

Al-Shâtibî and a number of other scholars of Islamic Law tell us that Islam has come to safeguard five universal needs: religion, life, lineage, property, and reason. Some scholars have claimed that this is a matter of juristic consensus.

It is not possible to safeguard these five universal needs effectively without possessing accurate scientific knowledge and being able to employ it properly to defend the faith and bring about worldly prosperity. Medicine, for instance, is a way to preserve life by safeguarding our bodies from illness. This is why our pious predecessors had so much respect for medicine. Some quote al-Shâfi`î as saying: “Knowledge is only of two kinds: religious knowledge and worldly knowledge. The knowledge that belongs to the domain of religion is Islamic Law and the knowledge that belongs to the domain of worldly matters is medicine.”

He is also quoted as saying: “After knowledge of what is lawful and prohibited, I know of no knowledge to be nobler than medicine, except that the People of the Scripture have outdone us in that field.”

It is said that he expressed his regret for the Muslims' neglect medical knowledge by saying: “They have neglected a third of all knowledge and left it to the Jews and Christians.” [Quotes taken from al-Râzî, Âdâb al-Shâfi`î wa Manâkibuh ]

A student cannot help but notice that there is an experimental approach to the worldly sciences. It is an approach of applying astute and rigorous analysis to meticulous and time-consuming observations. This methodology comes under the Qur'ânic injunction for us to reflect upon the universe. Allah says: “Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the Earth (saying): Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire:” [ Sűrah Âl `Imrân : 191]

If a person has a sincere and wholesome intention for pursuing this knowledge, it will have a positive effect on his faith. It will reinforce the textual evidence for the existence of the Almighty Creator. It also assists in our better appreciating the scientific allusions given by the Qur'ân, which emphasizes its miraculous nature. This is a good way of calling non-Muslims to Islam and of strengthening the faith of the believers.

An economist can give support to Islam's interest-free economic system in a way that a scholar of Islamic law never could. Islamic teachings came only to protect human life from going astray and to encourage productivity and work, so much so that wholesome, productive work is recognized as a sublime virtue and an act of devotion.

Using the proper means – the natural causes – to get things done is part of our faith and creed. Allah says: “Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends. One (such) way he followed.” [ Sűrah al-Kahf : 84-85]

Failure to use proper means is, in effect, a deprecation of Islamic teachings. Whoever gives thought to the guidance of the Prophet (peace be upon him) will easily see how he took the needed practical steps to achieve his aims, from the time of his emigration until the time of his death.

Advancements in science and technology are among the ways and means to achieve the upliftment of the Muslim world. Much of the backwardness and many of the defeats that from which we have been suffering is but the result of our lagging behind in scientific knowledge, our paucity of general understanding, and our inability to appreciate the true relationship between cause and effect.

Muslim history abounds with examples of scientific and cultural ingenuity. The Muslims inherited the knowledge of the nations that came before them and developed it and placed it in the context of a precise moral framework. Muslim scholarship made a vital contribution to the enrichment and advancement of human civilization.

Sadly, there are serious shortcomings in or efforts to teach the Muslims that the Qur'ân is concerned with these sciences that give humanity the ability to benefit from the world around them. It is indeed from Allah's wisdom behind placing humanity up on Earth that we would develop it and cultivate it.

As I have already said, our lagging behind in scientific knowledge has made us as Muslims dependent on others. Equally, we meet with considerable difficulties when we try to build productive relationships and nurture cooperation between our scientists and Islamic scholars. There is a wide gulf between these two fields of knowledge, as if one has absolutely no bearing upon the other. The truth is, these two fields of knowledge have a complementary relationship. The fruits of scientific enquiry are in harmony with what the Qur'ân says about our role in developing the Earth and benefiting from it in every way.

We should mention that our lagging behind in science and technology while the West is progressing at a fantastic pace has a damaging effect on our mental health and on our determination. This is painfully true when it comes to our youth. It makes us feel defeated in front of the West, as if we have no contribution to make. Such a state of affairs ultimately leads to an erosion of our moral values. Our people start to believe that the West is the ideal that must be followed and emulated in every way, even when it comes to the low moral standards that the West itself suffers from.

Our youth must be made aware of these truths. They must know the extent of the danger that surrounds the Muslim world and what must be done for our upliftment.

Islam demands from us a sincere and mighty effort to achieve growth and development, first and foremost to please our Lord, and secondly to realize our own welfare in both our worldly and religious lives.

We must prevent ourselves from melting away in front of the challenges that confront us in this era of globalization.

muslimaah
10-16-2008, 02:46 PM
bismiAllah alrRahmani alrRaheem

all praises are for Allaah taabra wa taa'ala

Personally I do not think a Muslim sister has/should to work outside of her family home to make money if her husband tells her to or if she does not have to because her husband is obliged to spend on her since she is not obliged to spend on herself. (Allaah is the source of strengths)

Also, if this work of hers involves something haraam, namely mixing with men? Then she should not obey him with regard to this, because there is no obedience to any created being if it involves disobedience towards the Creator. He should be reminded that he is the man and is her protector and maintainer because he spends on her from his means. It is not right for him to let greed for worldly things and the desire for more money make him ask his wife to do work which she is not obliged to do according to sharee’ah, or to expose her to fitnah (temptation) for the sake of the transient conveniences of this world.

For example, I was raised by a single mother in the kat twenty plus years with 5 children. Since I can remember, my mothjer has taken courses to achieve herself certificates, she has and is still working, plus she has/still takes care of all the household responsiblities all by the mercy of Allaah taa'ala and on her own. (ps: i do not even know the definition of a father anymore because I think she has earned the title of both responsibilites wa alhamdu liAllah).
I think most of the time it depends on the situation, and ther person(s). Like they say, different strokes for different folks, just as long as thsese choices do not against the law and earn the wrath {anger} of Allaah taa'al. (Wisdom=putting/saying the right places/things in/on right time)

In addittion, since we live in a non muslm society a lot of measures would need to be looked at carefully as a couple to come up with conclusions that will please Allaah taa'al and satisfy their situation because the types of jobs and school here will affect a persons relationship (ie: iman) with their lord unless the person is constanly trying to get close to his Lord, by learning about him and his religion and by using these teachings of Islam as a shield and portection from this socities fitnah until we ask Allaah taa'al to make an easy way for us from this society. But much individual efforts is required from all us to change our current situaion and this is to chose Allaah taa'al over all of our desires.

Secondly, since i am not married, but if If I was. Personally, I would perfer that my wife does stay at her home {most of the time} and all the time, with our family. This will allow me to take care of our outside/inside{my family} responsiblities. However, if she does want to work, then a part time job would not keep her away from her, since this can be a useful asset to her in all aspects of her life (enjoying the outdoors by not being at home all the time, extra finance, etc). Or, she could pursue to learn teachings of the Qur'an and teach the little ones in the neighbourhood to contribute to Islam. We need to start perfering Allaah taa'al over all of our deisires so that we may earn his pleasure.

Thirdly, with regards to a muslim women making more than her spouse, my opinion is firstly and foremost the couple should thank and glorify their Lord, may he be Glorified and Exalted for this great blessing he has bestowned upon them that most people don't have. Secondly, the husband should be aware that this blessing is only from his Lord even though his wife achieved this throuh/with the sources he has has provided for her. Thirdly, if this is till botheirng him, personally I believe this brother has a high ego, insecurity issues, etc and this could possibly be a test from his Lord. This test could be a test of pride/arrogance (inwardly/outwardly) which needs to be worked on and cured before this person meets his lord. (the prophet peace be upon him said whoever has an atoms weight of {inwardly&outwardlypride will not enter paradise). Allaah taa'al is our provider and the best it, so we should not be thinking like this even though we get what we work for most of the time. It is Allaah taa'al that is allowing every single thing to happen by his will, Subhana. This just shows we are working bakwards in our pursuit to paradise and the pleasure of our Lord. Rather, we should try to compete against our righteous predecessors work (even though we fully can't) and by imitating our beloved Prophet Muhammd (peace and blessings on him.) achievements compared to what we see with our eyes in this life, because I guarantee you that death will destroy all of these desires of ours even though society has set high expectations for us but so does our Lord. These are the people that Allaah taa'al is pleased with and we have been told this. We have not been told that "we" have earned the pleasure of our Lord, so let us please hasten to achieve this status with our Lord and compete in taqwa/piety. Lastly, the more a couple is working on building a relationship with their Lord at all times (24/7) by trying to earn his pleasure and his Paradise. The more we thank Allaah, and give/show him the gratitude that he deserves, the more be satisfied and contempt. Essentially Allaah taa'al is our provider, he is the best of it, and we never know what we will receive or loose today.

If this writting of mine , has offended anyone, please forgive me and if it does not contribute beneficially in any way then anyone is free to erase it. i just thought that I may relate to this thread. wa Allahu taa'ala a'alim wa salatu wa salam ala rasulana.great answer masha Allah. may Allah grant your mother the best in this world and the hereafter. Ameen.


but I think a sister who persued some sort of education will be better fit to raise her kids up, to teach them when they need help in school, and to be aware of what is out there, of Allah's creation,...I have found that my "secular" knowledge has only helped me become a better practicing muslimah who can give back MORE productively to my communityright on. you must try and know what's it like out there growing up around in this society in order to understand your kids better and raise them as good muslims.

sireen
10-16-2008, 04:35 PM
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ


(النساء: 34)
[34] Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means...




Doesn't say woman shouldn't work, but don't you think it would basically be taking away half of what makes a man qawam.

Not if the women are using the money they make for personal reasons and for donations fee sabeel Allah...(ie. not towards the family and food and raising children)...but that's just an opinion...waAllahu a3lam..

sireen
10-16-2008, 04:37 PM
right on. you must try and know what's it like out there growing up around in this society in order to understand your kids better and raise them as good muslims.
yeah, or else, your kids wont even trust you enough to listen to your word if they don't see that you are "eligible" enough to understand them because you have not been there...once again, this is just an opinion!

sireen
10-16-2008, 05:04 PM
With over 70 posts and still counting, this is going to be an endless discussion and/or argument.

People have their own opinions and views and I think that they have already been discussed.

Why doesnt one of the shuyookh put in their two cents, and wrap it up?
also, take the Love Notes/Fiqh of Love seminar...it was discussed plenty..

hibahmac
10-16-2008, 06:41 PM
Why doesnt one of the shuyookh put in their two cents, and wrap it up?
probably because it is not the responsibility of the shuyookh to moderate the forums.

second, no question has been asked of the shuyookh; the thread was clearly started to solicit opinions from the body of participants here, not look for a fatwa.

last, you can always skip the thread, non???

Nafsul-Awwaamah
10-16-2008, 09:17 PM
Wow... I feel like I'm being attacked. I'm for my lack of a thoughful word choice "pointless" (and somewhat exaggerated, I now notice). In my defense, what I meant by "pointless secular knowledge" would be basics/core subjects that are required by universities. Yes, I agree you do learn a few things here and there but, in my very humble opinion, its time wasted. It seems like a chore that needs to be done, and one that gets in the way of all the other chores. Like dirt around a wound that gets wiped off before any healing is attempted (though you can see the wound clearly). Does that make any sense? Just trying to clear up any misconceptions. I'm sorry if anyone got offended, it really wasn't meant to be hurtful. May Allaah (SWT) forgive all of our shortcomings. Ameen.

sireen
10-16-2008, 09:33 PM
Wow... I feel like I'm being attacked. I'm for my lack of a thoughful word choice "pointless" (and somewhat exaggerated, I now notice). In my defense, what I meant by "pointless secular knowledge" would be basics/core subjects that are required by universities. Yes, I agree you do learn a few things here and there but, in my very humble opinion, its time wasted. It seems like a chore that needs to be done, and one that gets in the way of all the other chores. Like dirt around a wound that gets wiped off before any healing is attempted (though you can see the wound clearly). Does that make any sense? Just trying to clear up any misconceptions. I'm sorry if anyone got offended, it really wasn't meant to be hurtful. May Allaah (SWT) forgive all of our shortcomings. Ameen.Lol, as I read your post, I have opened next to me one of the most hated chemistry courses in my degree...and you know what, although I have complained much about it, if there is one thing it teaches me for sure (I'm sure there are many things, for, without our limited knowledge of gases and their laws, the world would be a different one from what we know)...but if there is one thing it really teaches me: PATIENCE!!!! (on the things I hate) and belief that nothing comes easy...and...inna ma3a al-3osri yosra :)
Just find the benefit in everything and continue to make lemonade out of those limes that are thrown at you sister :)

But now I guess I shall get back to marveling at Allah's creation of gases and the laws He subhanahu wa ta'ala created for them to behave upon :) (cuz just writing this post has motivated me to study, so, Jazakillahu khairan for making something I dread something I am looking forward to!!!)

Nafsul-Awwaamah
10-16-2008, 09:45 PM
Lol, as I read your post, I have opened next to me one of the most hated chemistry courses in my degree...and you know what, although I have complained much about it, if there is one thing it teaches me for sure (I'm sure there are many things, for, without our limited knowledge of gases and their laws, the world would be a different one from what we know)...but if there is one thing it really teaches me: PATIENCE!!!! (on the things I hate) and belief that nothing comes easy...and...inna ma3a al-3osri yosra
Just find the benefit in everything and continue to make lemonade out of those limes that are thrown at you sister :)

But now I guess I shall get back to marveling at Allah's creation of gases and the laws He subhanahu wa ta'ala created for them to behave upon :) (cuz just writing this post has motivated me to study, so, Jazakillahu khairan for making something I dread something I am looking forward to!!!)Wa iyyaaki. I hope I still get the ajr though that wasn't my intention http://forums.almaghrib.org/images/icons/icon10.gif. And thats a first, for me to "influence" study. Usually the opposite happens. Allaah ysahil 3alekil chemistry. Ameen.

safa_709
10-16-2008, 11:51 PM
A cop out? How is a perceived priveledge interpreted as a cop out? Maybe these sisters don't want to be in the kaafir atmosphere of colleges and jobs? Maybe they'd rather further their Islamic knowledge rather than pointless secular ones. Maybe they get married to guard their chastity. Maybe they really want children and how else are they going to get them? Yes there are those who just think "oh I'll stay at home" but hey, if they don't want to work, they don't have to. If she wants to work, let her work. If she doesn't, don't force her. Its that simple. And what mother discourages their child to go to school? I've never heard of a Muslim mother denying her children the right Allaah has ordained for them in regards to seeking ilm ..... SubhanAllah its crazy. Its a piece of paper. Kind of like how so many "Experts on Islam" have degrees from non-Muslim sources. Pffft.
I dont know where you are seriously coming from sister, but reading your post I was somewhat shocked. I'm sorry to say, but a degree is not just a piece of paper; its time, money, and knowledge. Its expanding and developing. Its seeking Allah's pleasure, and seeking ajr. Those who have finished their undergrad education can tell you that theres a difference in one's perception, critical thinking and skills learned & perfected in academic settings. Lets not allow our opinions or let our emotions gear us to make baseless remarks even when we have good intentions.

As for living in Kuffar environment, I really get tired of hearing this over and over again. If you dont want to experience this, then why are you still living here? It just doesnt make sense. Yes, unfortunately most colleges and univerisities are mixed, and so are professional areas of work. We have fitnah all around us, and we are immersed in it but that shouldnt stop one
from pursuing good (unless of course its very severe, thats another story).

Another point that many people fail to understand- that secular knowledge is pointless or worthless, something that "others" need to take on like non-Muslims but something we shouldnt busy ourselves with. We need to strenghthen ourselves both spiritually and 'worldy' and it is our responsibility to be the BEST in everything! As Muslims we should be the ones leading in every field, the ones who people look up to, the ones who encourage the best for humanity. Enough said.



I totally agree with you. There are people with degrees who are the dumbest people in the world. Likewise there are many women who have never been to college and know so much. S
Of course, there are people in the world who are not intellectually gifted with degrees and I dont think we need an example (*cough GWB *cough), but generally those with degrees tend to be smarter, in the sense of not just IQ but in aspects of thinking, perception, etc.

Alhamdulilah I've been blessed with 2 amazing parents who respect the value of knowledge both religious and spiritual and have always promoted both and raised us with appreciation of both and a need to excel in both. They see this as imperative to sprout amongst their children those men who will lead the ummah and be of the best to their families, and the women who will make such great mothers and teachers of outstanding offspring. Without empowering our youth with ilm, again both sides of islamic and worldly, we will not go far.

Oh, and I dont see why someone cant get married and continue their education or have had one (at least an associates or bachelors). You dont need to compromise either?

A few other benefits of secular knowledge:

- Benefits the Ummah and ones community
- Brings one closer to Allah (swt)
- Dawah on every single level
- Advancements in all fields
- Raising your children and teaching them what you learned
- Understanding the people, society, and culture
- Makes us stronger
- Strenghthen ties with many people
- simple Education!
- Professional jobs and financially stable

I hope sister, you dont take offense as I mean no harm or ill whatsoever.
May Allah bless you with whatever is best for you.


Allahuma aryna al-haqa haqqah war zuqnah etibaa'uh, wa aryna al-batila batilaa war zuqnah ejtinabuh.

O'Allah show us the truth/good and bless us with following it, and expose us the falsehood/harm and bless us with avoiding it. Ameen.

safa_709
10-17-2008, 03:32 PM
Asalamu Alaykum jam'eean.

On this beautiful (and chilly) day of Jumu'ah, I'd like to take a moment and clarify that I never mean any harm to anyone, no matter what view you take and no matter what you believe, as long as inshallah we all end up having good intentions at the end of the day and strive to please Allah (Swt), by also constantly ask him to make us of those who gain izz through Islam and whom Islam is given izz through them.

I really dont want this to be a back and forth argument, especially since most of these type of discussions dont necessarily persuae anyone nor change anything, so I am resisting to posting back(very very much, ya Allah!). Walhamdulilah for the differences.

In closing remarks, I would like to say for those who want to and those who dont want to pursue a university or any other degree its your choice, but let us all be clear and true with ourselves. Let us all have clean niyaas and let us not point our finger or let the most subtle suggestion slide on whose "right" or "superior" or "better". This rests in Allah's hands, for he truly knows our selves more than ourselves. There can be two sides to this debate, and though biased that I am, I think there is khayr in either decision. But one thing we can all agree on is that we all need to puruse our deen, islamic knowledge, following the sunnah and being the best Muslims we can possible be. Let us not generalize, yes constructive criticism is good but lets be firm yet polite, bold yet gentle. Simply, have hikmah....think before you post even if you add a disclaimer at the end as buffer....remember to think of others when you try to reach to them.

To this, I speak to myself first and foremost and Allah (swt) in all his exalted greatness is my witness! And I say 'have taqwa wherever you may be' for that is the only true sweetness of guidance, clarity, and peace.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, :D that inshallah for my lack of adab that you will all forgive me. May Allah forgive us all. Ameen.



P.S. By the way Bint al-Halal, I know of a few Muslims who have entered university (sometimes grad or med or law school) and have gone so far mashallah as to have finished their hifz, and some even pursuing high degrees in shariahs or bachelors. Both sisters and brothers btw.

muslimaah
10-17-2008, 04:29 PM
I personally do not agree that going to college plays any role in helping you become a better parent, I feel that following the Qur'aan and Sunnah plays a big role in this. My own mother and father never went to college (I'm not discouraging college, just giving an example) and I've realized that people earn their real degrees through living life as close as possible to the Sunnah. college broadens one's perspective, exposes you to so many things especially living in a kaafir society, if you hang out with the right kind of people, it reaffirms your faith in Quran and the sunnah. and if you guys read that post by salman al oadah you can see Islam actually encourages deeny and worldy education. i hope that made sense lol.

In the end, I would like to say jazkum Allah kheir for sharing your opinions. I sincerely hope this thread was of some benefit to everyone. we have our differences, what works for me may not work for someone else. at the end of the day we all are muslims alhamdulillah and should remember the only reason we are here is to worship Allah. do as you please as long as it's within the framework of Islam and place your tawakkul in Allah :-)

ikbenidil
10-18-2008, 11:58 AM
we are spending alot of time on this thread what we should all do is use our time wisely if one wants to educate their self go ahead.