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View Full Version : The sisters wear the skirt not the pants, thank you very much.


Khadija
01-24-2009, 06:42 PM
I had a very enlightening and interesting conversation with a very dear friend of mine. Masha'Allah the more I talk with my sisters in Islam the more I realize how intelligent, inspiring, and extraordinary these sisters are.

Each time I talk to a new sister, I realize how true this statement stands: " Behind every great man is a great woman".

We were both contemplating why brothers seem to be intimidated by sisters in leadership positions either in their careers or in Islamic work.

We thought subhana'Allah, would this sister not be able to utilize the necessary leadership skills and life experience in establishing the ideal Muslim family?

Why is there such a fear that the sister will wear the pants? I think we are very content with our skirts alhamdulilah…and we don't want to exchange it for the world :)

We then discussed how in our own community, from all the youth that were successful, they had mothers who were very well educated, either doctors (most stay home moms now), or had Islamic studies degree, and so on.

It seems that for brothers who want to limit their wives to just bare minimum level of education, I believe they might be doing a disservice to their family and the community. How did these children become the leaders of their community? Because they had mothers who had a well rounded, diverse background and skills that they passed down to their own children.

The leadership, organizational, administrative skills that we might pick up from our positions might help us in leading, organizing and handling issues in familial matters.

So I really think brothers should get over this fear, and encourage sisters to expand on their knowledge through Islamic means.

Alhamdulilah Torch Bearers provides many examples of such exemplary women, and women who were more woMEN than ten men of today.

So let's bring back the real women, so the real men are born :)

Amatullah
01-24-2009, 09:39 PM
well said. barak Allahu feeki.


We were both contemplating why brothers seem to be intimidated by sisters in leadership positions either in their careers or in Islamic work.
I wonder the same. Allahu ta'ala a'lam.

Memoona
01-24-2009, 09:39 PM
Love your post Sr Khadija

Khadija
01-24-2009, 09:44 PM
jazakum Allahu kheiran...

maybe they are just insecure?

amaney
01-24-2009, 10:56 PM
Alhamdulilah Torch Bearers provides many examples of such exemplary women, and women who were more woMEN than ten men of today.

So let's bring back the real women, so the real men are born :) is their any more that needs to be said?

Ilahi
01-25-2009, 12:32 AM
Mashallah Amazing, this is using the least amount of words with the most meaning to them. We should use this as a cliche.

Khadija
01-25-2009, 12:58 AM
Mashallah I love how sisters pull themselves up by pushing brothers down. Please don't stereotype us. Please go to the Quran and Sunnah and educate us on the different roles and rights of Brothers and Sisters dealing with all aspects of Life? When you diss on the brothers like this you are harming us with your tongues and we should be protected from this. Brother we are not dissing anyone, we are asking you to tell us what is the deal :) so care to explain please? Everything is expressed as a question so that allows you to refute what we say.

We are not talking about what we have seen in our community, so care to refute it? or at least explain to us why that is the case?

Khadija
01-25-2009, 01:20 AM
Actually my main argument was about leadership positions in Islamic organizations, not just career.

As I mentioned in my above post, there were mothers who are Doctors by profession, but stayed home and took care of their family.

You went to a whole different tangent.

Khadija
01-25-2009, 01:24 AM
akhee I am talking about sisters who are heavily invovled in Islamic work. Sisters who are vps, ameerahs, ect, brothers are usually intimidated by them for some reason and do not propose to them. I know manyyyyyy sisters in this position.

and as you have seen from the other sisters responses, they have seen the same issue occur in our communities

Khadija
01-25-2009, 01:30 AM
subhanaAllah, let's say that option has been exhausted already....

If she is already out there, known, brothers already know about her. So, should they then not come anyway?

Khadija
01-25-2009, 01:36 AM
maybe because of her accomplishments they just figure they will be rejected even though they would want to marry her.Now that seems like one possible explanation. So now the opportunity for us sisters to say: Brothers take the risk; it might just be worth it inshaAllah.

Khadija
01-25-2009, 01:54 AM
Well it's always worth the risk if that's what you want but you have to realize that it's not the easiest thing for a brother to do.and so I have heard, but how are we supposed to know that if you brothers do not communicate that to us sisters. We do not know what is difficult and what is easy for you all. All we have in our minds is like you said the steroytypes.

We don't know how badly brothers fear rejection, how they would rather wiat years before asking, out of fear of rejection.

I guess my whole point of this thread is to understand the reasoning and actions of the other side.

Khadija
01-25-2009, 08:50 AM
We're humans sister. Of course we fear rejection. I mean if we didn't then the proposal probably wouldn't mean anything in the first place.
That makes sense.

You need to make dua and figure out what your niche is that can streamline you to exactly who you are looking for and then spread the word.

I pray Allah makes it easy on you.
Ameen, and on all the akhawaat. Just to throw out a little disclaimer, this thread does not reflect anything of my personal life, otherwise I would'nt have dared posted it :) Second, the targeted popultion I am mainly looking into are sisters who have been pioneers of Dawah in their community, schools, and masaajid, and now have become older and that opportunity when they were known and on the spot light, no one approached them.

So, after a while, the sister moves on to other projects once her time is done and goes on ahead to try new things in life, yet still unmarried. These sisters have nothing wrong with them, rather I would encourage brothers to look into them before anyone else younger because they are already mature, experienced, they know wha they want, they know their weaknesses and strengths.

Age is just a number after all.


Decide what your requirements are for a potential husband and post them up and maybe someone will see them and give word to a brother they know (I'm not looking fyi).

what are you looking for?
race:
culture:
age:
would you relocate:
religious knowledge:
languages:
income:
looks:
what faults of yours would they have to accept (like for me I don't speak arabic and I know some sisters there husband would have to speak arabic inshallah)
etc. etc.lol this thread is not for me, but I do know sisters who are in this position. Would love to help so if anyone wants to suggest names or find a solution email me at ameerah@durbah.org

Adib Contractor
01-25-2009, 10:46 AM
I am proud to say that I have repeatedly proposed to only the most religious and active sisters, those sisters that are leading organizations and communities, and have been repeatedly rejected by them. Alhumdulillah 'ala kulli haal. I refuse to be discouraged by that and will continue to try, insha'Allah.

I cannot speak for the other brothers.

ahashmi
01-25-2009, 11:08 AM
I don't think brothers fear sisters who take leadership roles. I know many brothers who want sisters who lead other sisters, and become a role model to society, someone the youth look up too.

But, I think it the sisters who are leadership roles, and they are commanding. This is what the brothers fear... not a sister who is a VP, or ameerah, but rather one who tells others what to do, who orders.

I think the society we live in, we need active, religious, sisters who take up leadership roles, and become a means of guiding other sisters in their community, who become a mentor.

LImbers
01-25-2009, 11:17 AM
Alhamdulilah Torch Bearers provides many examples of such exemplary women,... It showed that females are (and should be) great at multi-tasking.

Sisters can be commanding in one task as that specific task requires that skill set, yet in household familial matters, those exact same sisters are soft spoken.
Alhamdulilah Alalh Azza Wa Jal has blessed some sisters with this. Should they not try to work with that blessing?

They can fulfill the duties Allah Azza Wa Jal gave them, and yet teach all genders how to lead, and how to not lead : )

So do not be afraid one responsibility will suffer while the other responsibility soars.

As for other factors that both genders cannot control, such as being rejected based on keenness in leadership, age, nationality, X, Y, Z, these rejections are societal norms and the only way to break those norms is to lead by example.

The Prophet SAW recognized and understood the importance of breaking societal norms; his life showed this. He married older women, a widow, he appointed a black man to call the adhaan even when he could not pronounce it properly, etc.

He didn't do it just for political reasons only or to be ‘bold’; he did it also to show us what we can and are allowed to do in order to save the community.

As for a female examples of this, I refer to the story of the beautiful companion Julaybib rA. The Prophet said of him: "He is of me and I am of him."

-----------------
Slightly off tangent,
I really look forward to the Muslim American identity emerging.

Right now, many life decisions we make are made based on other cultural or societal norms (it worked for them, but is it really working for us as a community in the long term?). And that is why I think we have so many issues in the Muslim community, including the one Sr. Khadija posted.

Keep the faith :) We know we love to be positive as Muslims, Alhamdulilah.

ZBT
01-25-2009, 11:33 AM
There is a need for some female professions but if you are dedicating all your time to that and you don't want to raise children then the reality is that that is a turn off, not intimidation but a mother needs to be available to take care of the children including some of the education.

One can't just assume that because a woman is working full-time and is involved in leadership Islamic positions now that she'll do so forever. It shouldn't stop someone from proposing initially. This is something that needs to be discussed between the two people in the intial stages of getting to know each other. Is a girl doing justice to herself by sitting around and waiting in her house till a proposal comes or should she get up and make use of her education in the meantime?

I pray that Allah guides us all to making the right decisions in our our lives and we continue to seek his assistance in all matters.

LImbers
01-25-2009, 11:54 AM
One can't just assume that because a woman is working full-time and is involved in leadership Islamic positions now that she'll do so forever. It shouldn't stop someone from proposing initially. This is something that needs to be discussed between the two people in the intial stages of getting to know each other. Is a girl doing justice to herself by sitting around and waiting in her house till a proposal comes or should she get up and make use of her education in the meantime?

I pray that Allah guides us all to making the right decisions in our our lives and we continue to seek his assistance in all matters.Word. Ameen.

Adib Contractor
01-25-2009, 11:57 AM
Abdi is mashallah a very good brother, religious, educated, mature mashallah. If sisters are rejecting him then I don't know what to say...
Their reasons were justified, everyone's situation is different. Allah decrees what is best for the believers, and so what is best for me was being rejected until now. It was not in their power to accept the proposal because Allah did not want it. I do not blame them; rather, I continue to seek patience and persevere in my search, that's all.

Khadija
01-25-2009, 11:57 AM
Abdi is mashallah a very good brother, religious, educated, mature mashallah. If sisters are rejecting him then I don't know what to say...say Qadarallahu Masha'a fa'aal. and by the way, who is Abdi? :)

so anyway, the sisters have a lot to say, but no one is saying it..insha'Allah I will be posting more thoughts on this later inshaAllah.

Shirien
01-25-2009, 12:22 PM
Jazaki Allah khair Khadija for posting this.

I couldnt agree with the person who talked about the fear of the sister being commanding. I can only speak for myself when I say that alhamdulillah I'm pretty active and take leadership roles but that's just it, if you're in a leadership role, don't you need to be commanding? (in a nice way :) )

What about the brothers who think the girl has to be a little aggressive if she's commanding people around.

Did brothers ever think that especially toward a brother that the sister has to be a little stern, so they don't get the wrong idea?

Instead of thinking sisters are aggressive, give us the benefit of the doubt that we are perhaps communicating with the brothers in a stern way because we have to.

WAllahu alem.

If the sister fears Allah and has some basic knowledge of the roles in Islam, she definitely knows Allah comes first and family second. And a brother shouldnt have to worry about all the other things she's doing so long as she knows her role.

When the time comes and the sister has kids, trust me she's going to put some of her other activities aside to take care of her husband and kids and is not going to spread herself so thin.

The question I have is:

Does a girl being active in several things and is somewhat known to many people in the community and even in other communities make her not a reserved person in the eyes of brothers (i guess and sisters)?

Wallahu alem.

Khadija
01-25-2009, 12:31 PM
Masha'Allah Idil well said!


Sisters who are in position described in post should InshaAllah, have enough tarbiyyah & knowledge to know that at the end of the day, it is all the Qadr so keep your Tawakkul on Allah swt. If some activist is single at 28-29, then the only reason why she is not married is because Allah swt didn't ordain it for her yet. I don't see any point in holding brothers responsible for it?

With consistent Duaa, Tawakkul, Sabr & of course tying the camel, she'll marry somebody who truly deserves her, but that will happen only when Allah swt wills for it to happen. Husna, can you believe that those sisters I found to be the strongest, most patient and most hopeful in Allah sw, than the young crowd I hear complaining about not getting married already. I look up to them, and see them as my role models.

They are a treasure that is hidden, untapped, and it just saddens me to know that others do not see it.

and oh, as for holding brothers responsbile, like I said before this post was intended to discuss the reasons behind these issues. If what we mentioned does not stand true, then this is the opportunity for brothers to correct us.

How often do you hear what brothers think? and how they see things?

A lot of sisters think something is wrong with them, but they don't know that maybe a brother is just afraid to be rejected. So I think discussing this would be healthy for our community. We need to bridge that gap of communication.

. I dont see any wisdom behind , ''so this sister , who is an activist is getting older, is pious, so let me do her a favor and propose to her''..lol (I know I am exaggerating, but you get the point?) .Does anyone really do that?
I think it is our duty to protect. I would want someone to have my back sincerely, and I expect my community to have my back...The matter of marriage, I feel, we can no longer keep it at an individual level. We have to think not only of ourselves, but also, for our community, our future, as a whole body...not just be selfish. This is not what our community currently needs.

brother_bruce
01-25-2009, 04:03 PM
Jazaki Allah khair Khadija for posting this.

I couldnt agree with the person who talked about the fear of the sister being commanding. I can only speak for myself when I say that alhamdulillah I'm pretty active and take leadership roles but that's just it, if you're in a leadership role, don't you need to be commanding? (in a nice way :) )

What about the brothers who think the girl has to be a little aggressive if she's commanding people around.

Did brothers ever think that especially toward a brother that the sister has to be a little stern, so they don't get the wrong idea? I'm not sure, but I read that word 'commanding' as equating to 'feminist'; specifically the type that's espoused in western / liberal circles. Brothers will avoid feminists like the plague. Actually, given a choice between the two, I think they'd take their chances with the plague. :)

This is not about someone who's a (vice) president or an ameerah or the local NeighbourNet chapter president. Nor is it about someone who's looking towards doing a Masters or a Ph.D. Speaking for myself, my fiancee floated the idea of her pursuing a Masters in clinical psychology, to which I had no qualms, alhamdulillah.

There are two main problems that brothers percieve:

1. There appears to be a significant overlap - especially in the MSAs - of sisters who are 'active' and in 'leadership' positions who also appear to have 'feminist' leanings. Canadian campuses, I've been told, are worse than Americans in this regard.

Examples of what is percieved to be feminist include:

a) categorical and habitual 'brother-bashing'
b) ceaselessly trying to re-interpret the Islamic stance on issues such as polygamy, the status of women in Islam, etc. to the extent that they conclude x, y and z no longer 'apply' in today's society.
c) just plain confrontational, especially in regards to gender issues and roles

We realize that not all sisters in the MSA or other da'wah organizations are like this. At the same time, I think everyone knows exactly which category of sister I am alluding to. :)

If there is a sister in an active and leadership position who does not hold these views, she should subtly make that clear in her community, because otherwise she'll be a victim of a certain 'guilt-by-association' mentality.

Is this mentality wrong for the brothers to take? Probably yes. However, if you look at things from their perspective, why would they opt for such a sister when they can instead choose a quieter sister - who is still practicing - but develop her activist/ leadership potential together after marriage?

Its about taking unnecessary chances and inheriting a heightened potential of marital discord afterwards.

2. With respect to sisters persuing a higher education/ career, the concern (in my opinion) is more in regards to 'how will we raise a family together if she's persuing studies/ career'. Although compromises can certainly be made from both sides, its commonly understood that once kids come into the picture it would be the woman who would stay at home, regardless of the level of education or professional success she's acheived.

Additionally, there are two things:

a) If the sister is young but wishes to persue grad studies, then the question that arises is, 'who will pay for the education'. Given the cost of yearly tuition for grad schools, this can be a scary thought to contemplate. As if brothers dont have other responsibilities/ pressures to take care of.

b) If the sister is older (eg early 30s), then it is undeniable that she's going to lose her appeal relative to the early 20 somethings. In a successful marraige, professional success or educational degrees are not a key ingredient - for man or woman - although intelligence certainly is.

Of the crucial marriage ingredients, what advantage does a professional, 30-something sister have over someone who's 10-15 years younger than her, but has completed her bachelors?

On the contrary, she's lost her beauty, become more set in her ways, and has less of a window with which to have healthy kids. These characteristics are not inviting.



Ultimately, sisters need to realize that if they follow this path, there will be serious compromises to make. Given that there's already a marriage crisis of sorts in the West, they're in even less of a position to negotiate when they're competing with their younger counterparts.

If they feel that the price of a secular education is too high, then perhaps this education should be moved down on the list-of-things-to-do. If they want to go ahead with this type of education before marriage, then they should bite the bullet and deal with the inevitable consequences.

brother_bruce
01-25-2009, 04:05 PM
^^^my post above probably comes off more mean than originally intended. (Its actually devoid of emotion, just pure theory). In which case, please pretend that there are a number of smileys scattered throughout.

jazakAllah khayr.

brother_bruce
01-25-2009, 04:25 PM
Does anyone really do that?
I think it is our duty to protect. I would want someone to have my back sincerely, and I expect my community to have my back...The matter of marriage, I feel, we can no longer keep it at an individual level. We have to think not only of ourselves, but also, for our community, our future, as a whole body...not just be selfish. This is not what our community currently needs.This is a concept that the Sahabahs adopted. They made sure that no one in the community was left unmarried. Which is a concept our community sorely needs, in my opinion.

Keep in mind, that full implementation of this concept almost necessitates polygamy. Somehow I dont think the professional sisters educated in western schools will easily warm up to that idea. When these sisters have accepted the idea of becoming a '2nd-wife', or when they allow their husband to marry a second time, will they find that the community can look out for them in this regard.

And Allah [swt] knows best.

Memoona
01-25-2009, 04:30 PM
Did brothers ever think that especially toward a brother that the sister has to be a little stern, so they don't get the wrong idea?

Instead of thinking sisters are aggressive, give us the benefit of the doubt that we are perhaps communicating with the brothers in a stern way because we have to.

WAllahu alem.This is what I don't understand either ... sisters who are in such a position and are known amongst the brothers she would have to speak in a stern way. However, when she speaks in a stern way it is taken as 'rude', when in reality that is not the situation. Wallahul Musta'aan.


If the sister fears Allah and has some basic knowledge of the roles in Islam, she definitely knows Allah comes first and family second. And a brother shouldnt have to worry about all the other things she's doing so long as she knows her role.

When the time comes and the sister has kids, trust me she's going to put some of her other activities aside to take care of her husband and kids and is not going to spread herself so thin.
Ditto ... but lets not become flat tires :)

Khadija
01-25-2009, 04:49 PM
I think some of the concerns you have brought up are very valid. I am glad you have mentioned them. I guess both brothers and sisters are guilty of doing injustice to each other by the extensively stereotyping each other.




Is this mentality wrong for the brothers to take? Probably yes. However, if you look at things from their perspective, why would they opt for such a sister when they can instead choose a quieter sister - who is still practicing - but develop her activist/ leadership potential together after marriage?
So they want to marry such sister because they think they can change her, mold her into whatever they wish? Do brothers reallyyy think they can change a sister? If a sister had that potential, would she not have been that way from the beginning?

I know people who thought they could do that and ended up in divorce because they both did not want the same thing. If bros think that is the easy way out, then may Allah help them. May grant those other strong sisters, with stronger brothers than themselves to support and encourage them even more.


On the contrary, she's lost her beauty, become more set in her ways, and has less of a window with which to have healthy kids. These characteristics are not inviting.

What can I say to this? I know for a fact this does not stand true for all the sisters I know. I know sisters 30+, beautiful, wise in knowing how to deal with matters, and had children...seriously have mercy on our sisters. We might as well close the door of hope and say sorry your time ran out. Let us be sensitive and considerate in how we deal with this issue. If you think about it, the age issue should not even be a problem. Rather, I personally feel, socially, we have labled it as a problem, and made it into a real problem, and now we are stuck trying to solve that problem.


Ultimately, sisters need to realize that if they follow this path, there will be serious compromises to make. Given that there's already a marriage crisis of sorts in the West, they're in even less of a position to negotiate when they're competing with their younger counterparts.
Competing with younger counterparts? There need not be a competition. If people really are true to their words when they say all I care about is deen and taqwa, then let them show it in these kind of situations.

I am glad we are getting somewhere with this discussion. I am getting a better idea of how we see things.
I think it's time we both start supporting each other. Give people a chance, and rid our minds of stereotypes. Have mercy on each other.

Khadija
01-25-2009, 06:04 PM
Masha'Allah I really appreciate everyones responses. I am learning a lot alhamdulilah, and I hope we can benefit even more from this discussion...will post more thoughts later inshaAllah.

Khadija
01-25-2009, 07:56 PM
Indeed, I would expect my community to have my back (i.e. married sisters, elders of the community or sister with sources help me find a suitable match).

But I certainly wouldn't expect a brother to ''marry me for the sake of community service''...Imagine, if husband told his wife ''I wasn't really sure if you are the right person for me, but I still went ahead with this, because it was the best thing to do for my community.''
I get where you are coming from Husna, and now come to think of it, some brothers would actually say something like that lol (another stereotype). Well some might not say it, but they might be going into a marriage thinking that they are doing kheir to this sister by marrying her...but really, marry her because of what is worth, not because of her circumstances. I am sure if you look beyond her circumstances, you will find a great person.

I definitely would not want that to be said to me, or a person looks at me as if he is doing kheir, or as you mentioned a community service.

What we expect though is that brothers look at the essence of the sister, what she represents: her thoughts, her ideas, her values and standards. The only way he can know that is if he gives her a chance and sits with her.

There is a lot to a sister than her age and beauty. Rasullah knew the value of women, he knew how precious they were and treated them as such.

From a Social Work perspective, we are not empowering neither our men or women in reaching their full potential. Rather, we hinder them by labeling them and putting them in categories. Socially, once something is labeled, automatically you ostracize that group from the rest. No one wants to be the "other" group.

We are losing focus on our priorities and focusing on details that serve us no benefit.

brother_bruce
01-25-2009, 09:25 PM
Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah
I think some of the concerns you have brought up are very valid. I am glad you have mentioned them. I guess both brothers and sisters are guilty of doing injustice to each other by the extensively stereotyping each other.

So they want to marry such sister because they think they can change her, mold her into whatever they wish? Do brothers reallyyy think they can change a sister? If a sister had that potential, would she not have been that way from the beginning?

I know people who thought they could do that and ended up in divorce because they both did not want the same thing. If bros think that is the easy way out, then may Allah help them. May grant those other strong sisters, with stronger brothers than themselves to support and encourage them even more.
No, please read that statement in context with the problem brothers have with feminists. This option was mentioned as a precautionary measure from marrying a sister who may otherwise have such tendencies. Once he has safely established that she isnt into that sort of ideology, he can encourage her to go to (or continue with) attending AlMaghrib, alHuda, AlKauthar, or other routes of learning/ activism. :)

Secondly, marriage is about compromise - from both parties, of course. Eventually, everyone has to bend their opinions and views and be more accommodating if they want the marriage to survive. The older a person - male or female - gets, the more set they become in the world views and habits, and the less likely they are to change.

In regards to that, which of the following marriages is most likely to fail:

a) A marriage where 2 people come together with and open mind and willing to change
b) A marriage where 1 of the 2 has rigid opinions but the other is willing to make changes and sacrifices, or
c) A marriage where both parties have rigid and 'strong' opinions about how things should be?

A is the best. B can work, but there will be some suffering. C will probably end in disaster. This is probably why its best for both brothers and sisters to marry young, when they can still evolve and adjust to each other. If the sister has decided to grow up into her 30s, why would I as a brother want to risk having either a B or a C-type relationship, when I can aim for an A?

Lastly, the whole perspective that I feel these sisters are coming from (eg. May grant those other strong sisters, with stronger brothers than themselves to support and encourage them even more) presupposes that the sister should continue with whatever track she's chosen, and that the brother should only serve to further the goals that she's set out for herself.

It further supposes that if the brother is not ready to encourage these goals, than there is something wrong with him, or that he's the one who is 'weak'. If this is truly the mentality that this demographic of sisters have, then I think we may have isolated one of the root causes of this phenomenon.


What can I say to this? I know for a fact this does not stand true for all the sisters I know. I know sisters 30+, beautiful, wise in knowing how to deal with matters, and had children...seriously have mercy on our sisters. We might as well close the door of hope and say sorry your time ran out. Let us be sensitive and considerate in how we deal with this issue. If you think about it, the age issue should not even be a problem. Rather, I personally feel, socially, we have labled it as a problem, and made it into a real problem, and now we are stuck trying to solve that problem. There are exceptions to every rule. For every exception, you will find countless examples that conform.

Certainly, there are a number of sisters who are in their thirties and have retained some of their beauty, are wise, mature, thoughtful, etc. Whether we like it or not, most of these qualities are not factors to be considered when marrying a woman.

Generally, her deen, her beauty/ age, and her personality are looked at, with the requirement that she should have a certain minimum level of intelligence. Anything beyong that is nice alhamdulillah, but its generally not worth it to find someone who's 'closer to perfect' because of the time wasted, and also because of the diminishing returns on those qualities.

Although the factors you mentioned indeed are positives, if they come at the expense of beauty or accomodat-ability, then its a net negative. Coupled with the fact that sisters generally mature faster than brothers (mentally/emotionally/ physically), then within 10 years she would be looking - and possibly acting - like his mom. :(

On top of this, when you add that women lose the need for intimacy after this time, what is the man supposed to do when he reaches his mid forties? He's pretty much facing divorce if he wants to marry a second time as it is. In this case, its better for him and his wife if they both marry young and can retain their peace of mind 20-30 years later.


Competing with younger counterparts? There need not be a competition. If people really are true to their words when they say all I care about is deen and taqwa, then let them show it in these kind of situations. Yes, it is a competition. I agree that its probably a crude word to use, but for our purposes I think it gets the idea across. This 'competition' will worsen if certain groups continue to insist on a strict 1:1 definition of marriage.

Because lets be honest with ourselves; firstly, deen and taqwa are necessary but insufficient components in any spouse, be they male or female. We can thank family and societal pressures for most of that, but beauty/ wealth/ personality always have roles to play - this is natural.

Everyone says deen and taqwa are important, but I know of very few brothers who look exclusively at this. Probably none, actually. That can hardly be considered a mark against them.

i) Once a Companion told the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, that he was going to get married. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, asked if he had seen her. When the man answered in negative, he, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "Go and look at her for it is more likely to engender love between the two of you." (Reported by Ahmad and others and it is Sahih)

ii) The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "Marry the loving/friendly, the child-bearing woman, for I shall outstrip the other nations with your numbers on the Day of Judgment." (Reported by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and others and classed as Sahih)

Q. All things being equal, which is likely to have more children? the 23 or 33 year old? Who is likely to engender more love and retain her (his) natural beauty? The younger or the older?


None of these qualities are mutually exclusive with having deen and taqwa. Sisters want to load up on positive qualities when looking for a husband; there's no reason why brothers should be made to feel guilty when doing the same. Marriage - especially in a society that focuses on the 1:1 ratio - cannot be an act of charity. There has to be an element of selfishness involved.

****

To reiterate, sisters who have chosen to delay marriage (to acquire careers, graduate degrees, etc) until later should wake up to the reality that they are living in. If they are still young and in their twenties, they should try to get married first and then work out a deal with their husband. This is not a window that lasts very long

As for those sisters who are entering this age through no fault of their own, then may Allah [swt] ease their situation and bless them with pious and understanding husbands who will bring joy and happiness to their lives and help raise their ranks in the Hereafter. ameen.

Khadija
01-25-2009, 10:25 PM
I guess we have to face some of the realities in front of us. We have many issues, we have many problems. We have to play it smart and make smart decisions.

We cannot expect to live with idealistic dreams where we expect our men to be like the sahaba, and the women o be like the sahabiyat. Where we still fantasize about a Utopian Islamic society--we have to make the best of what we have now. These matters are in no way either black or white...so it is frustrating when individuals make it as such.

Khadija
01-25-2009, 10:26 PM
what qualities are these sisters trying to present to potential spouses?What do you mean by this question? Like what do these sisters have to offer?

bint_habibullah
01-25-2009, 11:48 PM
I'd just like to say I am benefiting and learning the different point of views from everyone on this thread, jazakumallahu khairan to all contributing, and keep sharing your thoughts! :)

Mansoor
01-26-2009, 02:49 AM
Sr Khadija, Sorry I didnt read the whole discussion (just read the first page of this thread). and for some reason the first post sounded a little feministic to me, thats why I posted the last comment. I deleted it after reading the whole discussion, which certainly has been very productive :) . Please carry on..

Noor Syed
01-26-2009, 08:31 AM
In regards to that, which of the following marriages is most likely to fail:
a) A marriage where 2 people come together with and open mind and willing to change
b) A marriage where 1 of the 2 has rigid opinions but the other is willing to make changes and sacrifices, or
c) A marriage where both parties have rigid and 'strong' opinions about how things should be?

A is the best. B can work, but there will be some suffering. C will probably end in disaster. This is probably why its best for both brothers and sisters to marry young, when they can still evolve and adjust to each other. If the sister has decided to grow up into her 30s, why would I as a brother want to risk having either a B or a C-type relationship, when I can aim for an A?

I don't think A is the best option as well bruce. Two people should come together accepting each other without expecting the other person or themselves to change.

I also disagree with age having to do with someone having an A, B or C type of relationship.

Accept the person you're interested in for who they are and just be willing to contribute to their growth:)

LImbers
01-26-2009, 08:32 AM
We cannot expect to live with idealistic dreams where we expect our men to be like the sahaba, and the women to be like the sahabiyat. Where we still fantasize about a Utopian Islamic society--we have to make the best of what we have now. These matters are in no way either black or white...so it is frustrating when individuals make it as such.I agree.
I don't totally agree with some of the analysis in some posts and yet it may be true to a certain degree mashAllah.

Dear brothers and sisters, let keep in mind, we can plan to have the most children, the youngest/ oldest spouse, but it is stll in the hands of Allah if you have 1 child at age 25-30 (these are the ages of best fertility for fm brothers), or have no kids with a 23 years old. These matters should not concern us to the utmost degree as it is in the hands of Allah and the Prophet's SAW own children and who he had them with is proof of that.


When communities in North America don't have what the Ansaar had, salaah and brotherhood, do we think we can get the mercy, gentleness and understanding the Prophet SAW show to to Khadija (age 28 had 6 children?), taught to the Ansaar, and practiced himself?


If we look at his life, we would see the real solution. But for now, we need to 'play it smart' and have quick fixes'.

Keep the faith and do both; act smart, and still envision and plan more for a real community. And let us please remember we are all like fingerprints, so it's better to not assume why people get married late; each story is different/ unique as we're all humans.

brother_bruce
01-26-2009, 09:01 AM
I don't think A is the best option as well bruce. Two people should come together accepting each other without expecting the other person or themselves to change.

I also disagree with age having to do with someone having an A, B or C type of relationship.

Accept the person you're interested in for who they are and just be willing to contribute to their growth:)I'm sure alot of brothers (nevermind the sisters) disagree with alot of things I've said. Feel free to call me out. :)

With respect to that statement, what I meant was... and how should I put it without verbally vomiting again... ;)

1. I only have power over what is in myself. I should be willing to change and accomodate the other person.

2. Although I should accept the other person for what they are (and not forcibly try to mold them), its somewhat understood that both sides will have to sacrifice something when coming together in a marriage.

3. Its generally easier to change and adapt when you're younger, rather than when you're older.

There are probably other factors that help determine the rigidity of a person's views as well... not saying that age is the only, or the strongest, factor.


EDIT: I just want to clarify that, while it would be awesome to have a utopian society, its pretty clear to everyone that we dont have one at the moment. The original topic of the thread was to help figure out why brothers are 'afraid' to marry sisters who seem to be high achievers, and its commonly asked why brothers are 'afraid' to commit to such people.

I'm just trying to explain things from my perspective, and how it doesnt necessarily have to do with fear, or that brothers are trying to keep the sisters down. Rather it can be a very rational choice on the male's part, based on unrelated factors.

Once sisters have a solid picture why phenomenon x is happening, they can act accordingly.

Sally Mahmoud
01-26-2009, 10:49 AM
I don't think A is the best option as well bruce. Two people should come together accepting each other without expecting the other person or themselves to change.

I also disagree with age having to do with someone having an A, B or C type of relationship.

Accept the person you're interested in for who they are and just be willing to contribute to their growth:)

you know.. i was wondering if A is the best option too..

I remember reading an article on arranged marriage in which one of our former ameers was interviewed..and br. shad said something so beautiful..that i already knew.. but he said it really nicely.. in regards to the mindset he had going into marriage:

"I knew that I would love my wife, no matter who or what she was..."

so he was able to trust the people around him who were facilitating the marriage process and when things worked out ..this is how he entered the marriage!

ZBT
01-26-2009, 11:48 AM
you know.. i was wondering if A is the best option too..

I remember reading an article on arranged marriage in which one of our former ameers was interviewed..and br. shad said something so beautiful..that i already knew.. but he said it really nicely.. in regards to the mindset he had going into marriage:

"I knew that I would love my wife, no matter who or what she was..."

so he was able to trust the people around him who were facilitating the marriage process and when things worked out ..this is how he entered the marriage!


I remember this article. It was an NPR series on Muslim marriages in America. Indeed, it was a nice statement made by brother Shad.

ForAllahAlone
01-26-2009, 02:14 PM
There appears to be a significant overlap - especially in the MSAs - of sisters who are 'active' and in 'leadership' positions who also appear to have 'feminist' leanings. Canadian campuses, I've been told, are worse than Americans in this regard.
Oooouuuuuccccccccccccch!!!!!

before I address my above outburst I want to say that I have learned ALOT mashaAllah from this thread and I see alot of the same issues reoccuring..lots a fear rejection from both sides. I am one to talk :) but remember that Allah is on your side and you can not lose by asking right? ( Alhamdulillah we all do for our communities not for ourselves but to gain Allah's pleasure and inshaAllah will continue in this regard in a different capacity after marriage)

I am sure that you're vision of what may happen is worse than what does happen..I commend br. Adib for his courage..keep at it inshaAllah! May we all follow in your footsteps..

As for the above implication that Canadian campuses are rife with sisters who have feminist leanings..my only response is WOW..

Maybe the Canadians bros could throw in a word or two for the ladies above 49th parellel..

I assure you Brother Bruce, mashaAllah you are a very kind brother, that there an many many sisters in Canada with great imaan, adthab, who volunteer and are raising great children while maintaing Islamic homes in peaceful union with their husbands.

So sorry maybe Im sensitive I just never heard that before..I thought Canadians were known for being the politer albeit slightly more liberal neighbour to the north :D

No harm done truly and forgive me for this I just had to say something for those "up north" ...Do send your fiancee to visit inshaAllah and she can send you a first hand account.

Khadija
01-26-2009, 02:23 PM
Wanted to clarify myself about what Brother Bruce mentioned.

Though I did not disagree, mainly because what was mentioned was the current reality we are living in, however, I do not agree that it should stay that way. We must analyze the issues and problems we are facing, stop the blame game, and focus on having an unbiased evaluation of the issues. It cannot just be from a brother's perspective, nor just from a sisters perspective. Both parties are involved, and society is made up of both man and woman.

So I feel some of us are being toooo practical, and others are being wayyy tooo visionary. We need to have a balance between practicality, and being visionary, in order to establish that stable, flourishing society we are striving to attain.

brother_bruce
01-26-2009, 02:46 PM
As for the above implication that Canadian campuses are rife with sisters who have feminist leanings..my only response is WOW..

Maybe the Canadians bros could throw in a word or two for the ladies above 49th parellel..
Wa'alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullah

Jazakillah khayr for your comment sister, although I assure you, I never meant to imply that Canadian MSAs campuses are rife with feminists. Rife is actually a very inaccurate description.

I had hoped that my follow up comment in that same post would have helped put things in perspective. If not, please let me know and I can certainly clarify myself.

To add, I completely agree with what Sr Khadija said - find a balance. Right now, I think sisters have a very cloudy idea of why brothers seem to avoid choosing high achieving sisters. This isnt the first time I've seen words like 'insecure' or 'fear' thrown around, and it honestly amuses/ frustrates/ saddens me, because I dont see much attempt made to actually figure out why such sisters might not be getting the proposals (although this could just be me).

Ultimately, the benefit that this discussion brings will pale in comparison to what you can learn by talking to your future spouse. Everything here is theory. Your potential spouse is an individual and can see things from a completely different angle.

I've more to say, but I shall put my foot in my mouth if I havent already done so.

wsalaamu alaikum wrwb

ForAllahAlone
01-26-2009, 04:01 PM
Forgive my overenthusiastic reply Br.Bruce:) it was my very first time every hearing (reading) this and it threw me for a loop sorta speak.

I think this thread is great due to the variety of views eloquently (and in my case not so eloquently) expressed and I'm learning alot Alhamdulillah.

JazakAllahukhair for the clarification, and for the Canadian bros "stand down" :)

Worship Allah Alone
01-26-2009, 11:12 PM
Assalamu alaikum,

I have just read a few of the posts (mostly the beg), so I am not sure where we are, but in general..

I think we need to redefine what we consider to be empowering women... the west thinks that empowering a woman is sending her to work... in islam, i think its more making her strong in terms of her spirituality/taqwa and on a personal level
so that she can make her kids strong and that can impact society/this ummah. I think when a Muslimah has a strong eman and knowledge of deen and dunya, then she can contribute to her family and this Ummah in a much better way. As for not obeying the husband properly, I think it is part of one's love/fear of Allah (SWT) that they should treat their spouse with respect...

anyways, I have a lottt to say about this because I am currently trying to learn about the sahabiyyat and their accomplishments (in terms of taqwa, family, society, etc.), so I can be one of them. Also, no doubt, a woman's first responsibility is her family, but along with this she can have MASSIVE impact on the Ummah (manage your time and energy and you will have time for everything...and you can do it in a way that pleases Allah). By doing this her kids become strong members of society (by seeing their mother). Anyways... i have a lot to say about this... im tired right now, sorry if i sound incoherent

Worship Allah Alone
01-26-2009, 11:20 PM
Also, just to add... the Muslimah does not have to leave her kids to someone... they can stay with her. For example, if she runs a Soup Kitchen, they can go with her (in this way they can help her, learn how to run a business, and interact with the needy).

another example.. if she is a writer, wants to write a book that is beneficial to the Ummah/society, she can do it while her kids are sleeping

there are ways to work around it...

where there is a will, there is a way... you can do everything
I think everyone should become a member of discoverulife;)

Brooklyn
01-26-2009, 11:32 PM
Masha'allah very beneficial thread.....May Allah reward those who put their feedback and opinions with the intention of helping others. And may Allah make it easy for those amazing sisters that we are discussing. I know SOO many sisters in that position.

Ifteen
01-27-2009, 12:11 AM
Well it's always worth the risk if that's what you want but you have to realize that it's not the easiest thing for a brother to do.I hear this argument quite often...

If brothers are intimidated/afraid to propose to a sister they are interested in what does that say about their courage to raise and lead a family? I.e.. If u are too scared to acomplish step .5 ( not even step one) how can u be true ameers of your family?

Forgive me if this seems harsh. Inshallah I pray my point isn't misunderstood but it is something I have wondered for some time.

Ifteen
01-27-2009, 12:30 AM
I understand sister. and I make dua for you that you find a righteous husband. I think everyone when they are ready should persue marriage and I even go against most of the sheikhs opinion that it is embarrassing to tell brothers at the masjid you are looking to get married, I say tell them you are and that you are serious about it.

Just like a sister has to stand up to her family and say what she is looking for in marriage or else how will she ever break away and obey her husband?
Ameen to your duas Akhi.

Br. Salik.. sometimes culture plays an important role in these things. Sometimes familes don't take a sister seriously when she says she wants to pursue a brother. Even if u express to your family/friends that you are serious about this issue.

Families often feel that there daughters should be pursued and not the other way around. Again, this is from many many many observations and conversations with many sisters. Thus fueling the frustration of the sisters. Leaving them to wonder.. where are the real men. When brothers sit in the backround playing the will she or wont she reject me game... and the sisters play the I ain't gonna compromise my hayat game nothing gets acomplished.

So I suggest the brother shine their shining white kufi and take the lead on this. Even if it means you will face a few rejections..

Mubarak
01-27-2009, 12:31 AM
Can I share my opinion on this topic inshAllah?

From my countless hours of talking to different circles of brothers regarding this topic and much more, I've concluded on one important point.

Brothers wont nothing to do with sisters who are leaning towards becoming feminists.

I dont believe brothers have any issue with sisters showing their leadship skills or qualities but sisters need to understand that, when a brother is serious about getting married, and the thought of proposing to you crosses his mind; his mind will gather whatever information it has heard or seen from you and sometimes, coming off as a strong leader could be seen as a threat to a brothers ultimate role - to lead his family towards Jannah. I know marriage is a partnership, and any positive qualities that a sister has, will ultimately improve the upbringing of the children and bring new opinion/prespectives to her husband's decision, but a man needs to feel, his wife is depending on him to lead her family towards Jannah. If a brother wants to lead for any other reason besides trying to give his family the best opportunity to be admited into eternal security, then that particular brother needs to look within himself and fix the glitch in his character - leadership comes with responsibility (but thats a topic for another day inshAllah).

But more importantly, I think brothers feel that sisters who are 'overqualified' (ie, highly educated, very active, strong leader, etc) to get married, are often seen by them as very demanding and therefore out of his league. So its not really an issue of 'taking a risk' but an issue of, even if I took the risk, she would probably want/need more than I could offer her (at the moment). So often times, he would redirect his attention, when he's ready to get married, towards younger sisters who possibly would look at him to lead and probably (at least, according to him), wouldn't demand as much from him.

There is so many things to take into considersation such as; while the brothers and sister wait to get married, they start focusing so much on themselves (trying to increase their knowledge and emaan) and what tends to happen is, a lot of time is spent in this stage. In fact, trying to improve oneself is a lifetime mission so therefore, the notion that, I need to work on myself before I get married doesn't really make sense because you'll spend your entire life doing that, and at the end you'll still feel like, you need more time. But, as we increase our knowledge of the deen and improve on our emaan, men and women grow farther apart; that is why, we're confused about the stance and opinions of the other gender.

Ifteen
01-27-2009, 12:38 AM
Can I share my opinion on this topic inshAllah?

From my countless hours of talking to different circles of brothers regarding this topic and much more, I've concluded on one important point.

Brothers wont nothing to do with sisters who are leaning towards becoming feminists.

I dont believe brothers have any issue with sisters showing their leadship skills or qualities but sisters need to understand that, when a brother is serious about getting married, and the thought of proposing to you crosses his mind; his mind will gather whatever information it has heard or seen from you and sometimes, coming off as a strong leader could be seen as a threat to a brothers ultimate role - to lead his family towards Jannah. I know marriage is a partnership, and any positive qualities that a sister has, will ultimately improve the upbringing of the children and bring new opinion/prespectives to her husband's decision, but a man needs to feel, his wife is depending on him to lead her family towards Jannah. If a brother wants to lead for any other reason besides trying to give his family the best opportunity to be admited into eternal security, then that particular brother needs to look within himself and fix the glitch in his character - leadership comes with responsibility (but thats a topic for another day inshAllah).

But more importantly, I think brothers feel that sisters who are 'overqualified' (ie, highly educated, very active, strong leader, etc) to get married, are often seen by them as very demanding and therefore out of his league. So its not really an issue of 'taking a risk' but an issue of, even if I took the risk, she would probably want/need more than I could offer her (at the moment). So often times, he would redirect his attention, when he's ready to get married, towards younger sisters who possibly would look at him to lead and probably (at least, according to him), wouldn't demand as much from him.

There is so many things to take into considersation such as; while the brothers and sister wait to get married, they start focusing so much on themselves (trying to increase their knowledge and emaan) and what tends to happen is, a lot of time is spent in this stage. In fact, trying to improve oneself is a lifetime mission so therefore, the notion that, I need to work on myself before I get married doesn't really make sense because you'll spend your entire life doing that, and at the end you'll still feel like, you need more time. But, as we increase our knowledge of the deen and improve on our emaan, men and women grow farther apart; that is why, we're confused about the stance and opinions of the other gender.
That is the biggest misconception out there about the sisters. A sister who is in a leadership postion in an islamic organization is most likely not a feminist trust me on this. Brothers should let that notion go and see what happens. Maybe jst maybe you will find a really good wife Inshallah.

Hala
01-27-2009, 12:45 AM
Sr. Mulki, what you mentioned sounds familiar... can you imagine going up to hooyo telling her you're interested in a brother? *shudder*

My advice to brothers, suck it up and ask her or wait. The possibility of rejection sucks, but what if she says yes? The possibility of being married is a more positive way to look at it.

My advice to sisters, keep doing what you do until he asks or say something to someone (family, friend, etc). The possibility of rejection sucks, but what if he's interested too? The possibility of being married is a more positive way to look at it.

Mubarak
01-27-2009, 12:48 AM
Great advice, so in other words..

If you're serious, put your pride aside and do IT! And rejection is never really an issue, once you start to have that real sincere connection with Allah.

Khadija
01-27-2009, 01:17 AM
My advice to brothers, suck it up and ask her or wait. The possibility of rejection sucks, but what if she says yes? The possibility of being married is a more positive way to look at it.

My advice to sisters, keep doing what you do until he asks or say something to someone (family, friend, etc). The possibility of rejection sucks, but what if he's interested too? The possibility of being married is a more positive way to look at it.I agree. I only see myself doing that if I think the person is extremely worth it, yet, unfortunately, we never know for sure, we don't have that access info about the bro....so then the sister is always hesitant, and that causes her to have lack of confidence and ends up dropping the idea.

Hesitancy is a killer for us sister, just as fear of rejection is a killer for brothers....all that is a result of lack of confidence.

LongingforJannnahFirdous
01-27-2009, 01:40 AM
I had a very enlightening and interesting conversation with a very dear friend of mine. Masha'Allah the more I talk with my sisters in Islam the more I realize how intelligent, inspiring, and extraordinary these sisters are.

Each time I talk to a new sister, I realize how true this statement stands: " Behind every great man is a great woman".

We were both contemplating why brothers seem to be intimidated by sisters in leadership positions either in their careers or in Islamic work.

We thought subhana'Allah, would this sister not be able to utilize the necessary leadership skills and life experience in establishing the ideal Muslim family?

Why is there such a fear that the sister will wear the pants? I think we are very content with our skirts alhamdulilah…and we don't want to exchange it for the world :)

We then discussed how in our own community, from all the youth that were successful, they had mothers who were very well educated, either doctors (most stay home moms now), or had Islamic studies degree, and so on.

It seems that for brothers who want to limit their wives to just bare minimum level of education, I believe they might be doing a disservice to their family and the community. How did these children become the leaders of their community? Because they had mothers who had a well rounded, diverse background and skills that they passed down to their own children.

The leadership, organizational, administrative skills that we might pick up from our positions might help us in leading, organizing and handling issues in familial matters.

So I really think brothers should get over this fear, and encourage sisters to expand on their knowledge through Islamic means.

Alhamdulilah Torch Bearers provides many examples of such exemplary women, and women who were more woMEN than ten men of today.

So let's bring back the real women, so the real men are born :)
Masha'allah very excellent points sister

Khadija
01-27-2009, 01:41 AM
So since we discussed it briefly we learned that:

Brothers don't propose because:


They fear rejection
They fear sister to be commanding
They fear she might be overqualified
They fear that she might have feminist beliefs


What do sisters think when they are not being approached?


They are intimidating the brothes
Brothers are being insecure
Brothers want passive, quiet sisters
Something is wrong with them
Anything else to add?

Now, what can be done? What is our action plan?

Mubarak
01-27-2009, 01:52 AM
Now, what can be done? What is our action plan?We need better communication between the two parties so that we dont base our conclusions on misconceptions. What can we do? A lot of things. Brothers can start being like the men of old and propose, and sisters should encourage that by making it known to the brother she wants to marry, "hey, Get at ME!" (in the most Islamic manner of course). Both sides need to start taking risks inshAllah and placing their trust in Allah.

What do sisters perfer brothers to do? Maybe in our next meeting, I can convey this message (Taking into consideration everything we've just mentioned)

Khadija
01-27-2009, 02:03 AM
Anything else..? What would a sister perfer a brother to do? Taking into consideration everything we've just mentioned?
1. Do not assume that she is boring,feminist,mean, authoritative, unattractive, or dull based on what you see outside. One has to sit to find out about her personality.
2. If brother fears rejection, and fears she might be over qualified, find out about her preferences, what she wants, and what are her expectations.
3.Brothers who are not necessarly interested in a sister, look out for her. If you have a good match for her, make it happen. View her as your sister and look out for her.
4. Brothers, we too have the wrong idea about you, so if a sister rejects you right away, one of the reasons could be that she knows nothing about you. Have someone put in a good word for you. Pick the right person to do that. You cannot expect a sister to just agree to meet with a brother she never heard of before. For a sister to consider a brother it takes a lottttttttttt of energy. A sister picks her battles and does not waste her time and energy just on anyone or anything. So play it smart when you approach the sister.

that's all I can think of now.

What do brothers prefer sisters to do?

Mubarak
01-27-2009, 02:16 AM
What do brothers prefer sisters to do? 1) Make it known to us that you want to get married. We can assume that sisters are looking but, we can't assume that 'sister' is looking (hopefully, you understood what I just typed).

2) (My own personal advice) If you're interested in a brother, dont assume he'll ever know that. Even if you worked with him, and started dropping hints that you are interested in him, it would probably not register with him that you want him to take the first step. We are men after all, and we need you to be direct. Trust me, sometimes if you take the first baby step, he'll take and complete the next 9 and half steps.

3) If you aren't brave enough to make it own to him, spend someone.

4) To avoid the discussion of 'are you a modern day -Islamic feminist', make your goals in life known to him.

5) Talk to your parents FIRST! No point in making your intentions to get married known if your parents dont know, or know but aren't supportive.

Khadija
01-27-2009, 02:27 AM
2) (My own personal advice) If you're interested in a brother, dont assume, he'll ever know that. Even if you worked with him, and started dropping hints that you are interested in him, it would probably not register with him that you wont him to take the first step. We are men after all, and we need you to be direct. Trust me, sometimes if you take the first baby step, he'll take and complete the next 9 and half steps.For brothers, please do not mislead sisters. Those smilies, or lol's, or jokes, or friendly actions online can be misread. Sisters are more detail oriented and pick up on things that might not mean anything at all. So please do the sisters a favor and also be protective of the sisters and be clear in your demeanur.

Ifteen
01-27-2009, 02:31 AM
1) Make it known to us that you want to get married. We can assume that sisters are looking but, we can't assume that 'sister' is looking (hopefully, you understood what I just typed).

2) (My own personal advice) If you're interested in a brother, dont assume, he'll ever know that. Even if you worked with him, and started dropping hints that you are interested in him, it would probably not register with him that you wont him to take the first step. We are men after all, and we need you to be direct. Trust me, sometimes if you take the first baby step, he'll take and complete the next 9 and half steps.

3) If you aren't brave enough to make it own to him, spend someone.

4) To avoid the discussion of 'are you a modern day -Islamic feminist', make your goals in life known to him.

5) Talk to your parents FIRST! No point in making your intentions to get married known if your parents dont know, or know but aren't supportive.
Again, Its hard for a sister to quote " drop hints" @ least most of the sisters I know.

But I do agree that brothers do need a more direct " hint" to get the idea. Unfortunately, I don't see sisters handing out business card with her wali's info conviently typed on the front.

Its really not that complicated.

here is a simple scenerio.


"Hmmm mashallah that sister is really nice I wonder if she is looking..."

"Brother fulan, I am interested in sister fulana can u ask your wife to look into this?"

Brother fulan talks to his wife she finds out the details. You track down her dad and leave the rest in Allah hands. Networking is important.

Adib Contractor
01-27-2009, 08:28 AM
I only see myself doing that if I think the person is extremely worth it, yet, unfortunately, we never know for sure, we don't have that access info about the bro....so then the sister is always hesitant, and that causes her to have lack of confidence and ends up dropping the idea.

Hesitancy is a killer for us sister, just as fear of rejection is a killer for brothers....all that is a result of lack of confidence.

I think this all stems from a lack of tawakkul. Let's face it: it doesn't matter how much information you have about a person, you will never know what is in his/her mind or heart. Only Allah can know that.

So what is our responsibility? Finding out the important points, shura with family members and good friends, making the firm decision. Then, we ask Allah for consultation (istikhaarah) and proceed, having tawakkul in Allah throughout.

This solves all the problems of hesitancy and fear of rejection... why? Well, how can you be hesitant or fearful when you asked the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth, the Knower of All Things, the Most Powerful for His guidance and His decree for what is best? You trust Him to take care of the rest, to take care of those things you could never know no matter how much research is done.

If it works out, then roll with it, because it is what is best for you. If it doesn't, then let it go, because that is best for you. Tawakkul means every situation becomes win-win for you.

Ahmed Ibn Hassan
01-27-2009, 08:39 AM
Your right, Twakkul: Make Du'a, Do your best, And leave the Rest To Allah.

Interesting thread, to say the least.

PS: I'm just trying to fast to keep my protection, until the time comes...

Give some advice.. on this thread:
http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=31660&page=2

Basil
01-27-2009, 08:43 AM
1. Do not assume that she is boring,feminist,mean, authoritative, unattractive, or dull based on what you see outside. One has to sit to find out about her personality.
2. If brother fears rejection, and fears she might be over qualified, find out about her preferences, what she wants, and what are her expectations.
3.Brothers who are not necessarly interested in a sister, look out for her. If you have a good match for her, make it happen. View her as your sister and look out for her.
4. Brothers, we too have the wrong idea about you, so if a sister rejects you right away, one of the reasons could be that she knows nothing about you. Have someone put in a good word for you. Pick the right person to do that. You cannot expect a sister to just agree to meet with a brother she never heard of before. For a sister to consider a brother it takes a lottttttttttt of energy. A sister picks her battles and does not waste her time and energy just on anyone or anything. So play it smart when you approach the sister.

that's all I can think of now.

What do brothers prefer sisters to do?So basically, you are advocating brothers stalk sisters?

Adib Contractor
01-27-2009, 08:48 AM
So basically, you are advocating brothers stalk sisters?
How did you get that? Clearly, the sister is speaking in the framework of hayaa' and taking all the proper methods. All of those things can be done without anything like "stalking".

Khadija
01-27-2009, 09:18 AM
I think stalking is better than talking, if you get what I mean :)

Khadija
01-27-2009, 09:36 AM
I think this all stems from a lack of tawakkul. Let's face it: it doesn't matter how much information you have about a person, you will never know what is in his/her mind or heart. Only Allah can know that.Due to the excessive amount of sin one falls into, an individuals Eman and tawakul is weakened. May Allah forgive our sins and protect us from disobeying him.

Adib Contractor
01-27-2009, 09:54 AM
Now, what can be done? What is our action plan?
One of the first steps to our action plan can be found here:
http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=31694

Hala
01-27-2009, 02:18 PM
Basically, don't assume too much without tangible evidence.
And Allah knows best.Well said mashaAllah Idil : )

Reading through this whole thread, all I could think was: brothers have no clue what sisters are thinking, and vice versa.

bedou
01-27-2009, 03:21 PM
Reading through this whole thread, all I could think was: brothers have no clue what sisters are thinking, and vice versa.

I agree with this observation about the thread, but I am surprised this is the case. I never thought these mistaken generalizations/observations were so widespread.

InshaAllaah take heed of the advice already given about doing your part, and leaving the rest with Allaah subhanahu wa ta'ala. There's no sense fretting or over-thinking things, because chances are that you'll end up compartmentalizing these issues, which will only take you farther down the hole of false assumptions.

Sally Mahmoud
01-27-2009, 03:55 PM
There's no sense fretting or over-thinking things, because chances are that you'll end up compartmentalizing these issues, which will only take you farther down the hole of false assumptions.


yea.. i agree.. esp since each successful wedding story is so unique.. you cant really judge anything as an individual based on the popular opinions of young muslims.. (although these sorts of trends are useful if you're like a company starting up such as practimate).

the best advice i can think of is figure out who you are.. and then work on attaining the sort of qualities you want in a spouse! once you develop yourself and your talents... insha'Allah you will get the perfect person for you :)

Khadija
01-28-2009, 09:45 AM
Br. Hanif for sure there are many reasons that might prevent brothers from proposing, likewise for sisters. Whatever mentioned in this thread is no way a representation of the majority. Rather, the only way we can know that for sure is through research and surveying (not even through AlMaghrib surveying).

Right now, we are only targeting a small percentage of the Ummah, definitely this small number cannot speak for everyone. However, this small percentage is the community us individuals are living in, so it is the closest representation for us at least.

So insha'Allah even though this might not apply to all, we at least have an idea of possible reasons.

I can say I am inexperienced, lack knowledge and show a sense of immaturity due to my inexperience. So I am aware of that, and I feel only through reflection upon experience, and through time will I learn.

Whatever I have mentioned was from pure observation and various discussion with sisters, and I value those discussions, that is why I feel I must share them; the least I can offer is to connect the two worlds together by sharing what we think. Hope that made sense.

brother_bruce
01-28-2009, 10:08 AM
^^^^ditto. I dont want to give the impression that whatever I said was representative of the majority. The best thing is to talk to the person you're considering...

Br Adib said it best:

I think this all stems from a lack of tawakkul. Let's face it: it doesn't matter how much information you have about a person, you will never know what is in his/her mind or heart. Only Allah can know that.

So what is our responsibility? Finding out the important points, shura with family members and good friends, making the firm decision. Then, we ask Allah for consultation (istikhaarah) and proceed, having tawakkul in Allah throughout.

This solves all the problems of hesitancy and fear of rejection... why? Well, how can you be hesitant or fearful when you asked the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth, the Knower of All Things, the Most Powerful for His guidance and His decree for what is best? You trust Him to take care of the rest, to take care of those things you could never know no matter how much research is done.

If it works out, then roll with it, because it is what is best for you. If it doesn't, then let it go, because that is best for you. Tawakkul means every situation becomes win-win for you.

Dawud Israel
01-28-2009, 09:04 PM
Someone should have a clothing drive for the homeless...
Sisters donate your pants and brothers donate your skirts!

(Well, not necessarily yours, but could be from your family...you get the point!)

mraza1
08-21-2010, 01:45 AM
The older a person - male or female - gets, the more set they become in the world views and habits, and the less likely they are to change.

In regards to that, which of the following marriages is most likely to fail:

a) A marriage where 2 people come together with and open mind and willing to change
b) A marriage where 1 of the 2 has rigid opinions but the other is willing to make changes and sacrifices, or
c) A marriage where both parties have rigid and 'strong' opinions about how things should be?

A is the best. B can work, but there will be some suffering. C will probably end in disaster. This is probably why its best for both brothers and sisters to marry young, when they can still evolve and adjust to each other. If the sister has decided to grow up into her 30s, why would I as a brother want to risk having either a B or a C-type relationship, when I can aim for an A?soooo, I've been reading the posts on this thread, and it's all very interesting mash allah...we all have some insights to offer into this problem, and I haven't agreed with everything people have posted, however I haven't felt the need to respond until now.

You know, I guess, I may be one of those exceptions to the rule, but I thought I might put in my two cents anyway...if not for anyone else's benefit but just to express myself.

You see, when I was younger and in college (I'm 25 now) I was actually more set in my thoughts/ways than I am now. I wasn't very religious and more than not, I guess I was a feminist. After learning more about Islam, I become more open minded and willing to conform to the islamic idea of marriage. Before it was egalitarian all the way!

when I was younger I used to think I would put my career first, that it was beneath the dignity of a decent woman to cook and clean the house and stay at home, I also thought I had to make sure I got my way in the marriage....but that's all changed now as I'm spending my time learning my deen.....like a few sisters said earlier....some woman mature, and grow wiser as they age, which should be a desirable trait. But, I don't know, I guess it's not ....? I guess her loss of beauty, loss of desire for intimacy later in her life, and the potential of her being a "mom' to her husband and such fears gropes around in a brother's head....?

So, basically, I'm not sure what to believe...I'd like to hear a brother's perspective about marrying an older woman, insha allah :)

Sana D
08-21-2010, 04:00 AM
wow im to lazzy to read all the ppl post but cna i have a breif eexplanation ?? plzz

abdullahzs
08-21-2010, 07:30 AM
It's no problem, especially if he has a certain level of maturity and understanding of his deen. You can always help the brother figure out that those things won't be an issue-- any sincere husband and wife will do what it takes to make it work like a match made in jannah!

Ali 22
08-21-2010, 10:46 AM
actually its a good idea to let your wife or wife-to-be to educate herself to a higher education and even professionalism so that she can insha Allah teach your kids something and also be a 'backup support' if you ever need it (may Allah protect us). also i think its very beneficial for the relationship of the husband and wife to have a women who is 'at your level' so that you can be happy with each others company instead of being overlooked. but women should be smart enough to know the honour of a man and not think 'im smarter than him and will do things my way' lol...hes still the man of the house so give him that respect. let him be the man in charge, and you be the beneficial women behind him :)

sorry had to write that out somewhere before i forgot...:P

blue.believer
08-24-2010, 04:32 PM
Bismillah. Alhamdulillah I am learning.

To the point. I think I might be able to answer some of the questions sister Khadija raised.

From experience and observation, I have noticed many trends that are present with brothers and sisters who approach marriage. The issue mainly comes from the fact that men and women approach marriage differently.

(I will be as honest as I can, please forgive me if it offends some of you.)

Brothers in general:
When a brother is considering a sister for marriage, some of the main things he looks at are : 1.her religion, 2.her beauty, 3.her manners, 4.involvment in the community. For the first three, the brother doesn't mind a sister who is the best in these aspects.

However, when it comes to being active in the community, brothers tend to back off if the sister is : 1. Assertive, 2. Strong Willed, 3. Successful, 4. Authoritative.

If you display this, muslim men will run from you like you are a walking plague. I've seen it happen. You have too.

Why? This is the eye of the storm, the core of the issue, THE thing most of the sisters who posted on this thread want to know....

When many muslim men look at potential muslim wives, they look for signs and indicators.

Indicators of what?

Obediance.

There. I said it. Now you know the big secret.

Belive me if you want, its the truth. Brothers look for sisters they perceive as being "obediant", or potentially obediant in marriage.

This behavior is mainly due to two things which were summarized by a beloved Sheikh of mine who so eloquently said:

"The problems in society (referring to gender relations and marriage) come from two things:

1.When men start thinking that they are superior to women.
2.When women want to be exactly like men."

On the money isn't it? If you have an ounce of humility in you, you have to admit that this is true.

What happens when men start thinking that they are superior to women?
1.They undermine the role of women, speak bad about women, hold sexist views, etc.
2.They, unfortunately, very of often mistreat women and do not give them their rights.
3.When a woman rises above their expectations of what a woman "should be", they get defensive.
4.It creats trouble in the relationship.

In the case of muslims and potential spouses, it roughly translates as : They stay the heck away!!!

What happens when women want to be exactly like men, or when they want to replace men?
1.They undermine the role of men, speak bad about men, hold sexist views, etc.
2.It creates trouble in the relationship.
Why?
Consider the following verse: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means." 4:34

It's in the nature of men, their natural inclination to be protective of women. When some brothers percieve that a sister is strong willed, independent, assertive, they tend to be intimidated and feel that the sister would compete with them in an eventual marriage.

Now for the "brothers-not-proposing-to-sisters-because-they-are-intimidated" issue: Alhamdulillah our practising and Allah fearing brothers don't look down on women. HOWEVER they still get that feeling of insecurity when they see that a woman displays personality traits that they perceive as being "manly" because they fear that the wife will rebel and be too much for them to handle once they get married.

Add that to the fear of rejection that most people naturally have and you get a receipe for disaster : Exellent sisters who can't get married. Exellent brothers who don't get married.

My advice to brothers: Rethink your position. Look at yourself and start asking yourself some serious questions. The fact that a sister is assertive, succesful, authoritative, and strong willed shouldn't be an automatic deterrent.

I don't know about you, but those are words I would use to describe Maryam, Assiya, Fatima and Khadija (May Allah be pleased with them all). And they were the best of women; nobody today comes close to them. And no one can argue that. If somebody displays these traits, don't get scared and look for other things that you are seeking.

Please share your thoughts and please do correct me if I am wrong.

And Allah surely knows best.

muslimaah
08-24-2010, 07:44 PM
assalamu'alaikum

I totally agree with you. A'ishah radyAllahu'anha was a strong willed woman. Khadijah radyAllahu'ahna was a succesful woman. Did you ever read about the Prophet salAllahu'alaihee wasallam feeling insecure?
A piece of advise to muslim women-marry a guy who's leadership you will respect. If you dont respect your husband, then you wont trust his judgements.

Muslim men, earn your wife's respect. You are our guardians, not so that you can bully us around, but because Allah chose you to look after us. If you want your wife to 'obey' you, win her over first. Earn her love, trust, and respect. A loving and caring man is very irresistable. Remember, the way to a woman's heart is thru her soul.

muslimaah
08-24-2010, 07:53 PM
Consider the following verse: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means." 4:34

It's in the nature of men, their natural inclination to be protective of women. When some brothers percieve that a sister is strong willed, independent, assertive, they tend to be intimidated and feel that the sister would compete with them in an eventual marriage.

Now for the "brothers-not-proposing-to-sisters-because-they-are-intimidated" issue: Alhamdulillah our practising and Allah fearing brothers don't look down on women. HOWEVER they still get that feeling of insecurity when they see that a woman displays personality traits that they perceive as being "manly" because they fear that the wife will rebel and be too much for them to handle once they get married.

They are simply being insecure. Not all succesful women are rebellious. Just make sure you marry a righteous muslimah who knows her deen and lives her life for the sake of Allah.

Alima
08-25-2010, 12:11 AM
Salaam 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

I've been reading this thread for a long time, and I thought I'd comment,

We have to keep in mind not every generalisation is specific and not every specific case, can be made into a generalisation.

Just a few things which I wanted to really point out,

When sisters in the da'wah field allow the brothers to be Men, they will be men, and when brothers understand how much value sisters bring to the da'wah and allow them to contribute to what they're worth then the sisters will help them maintain the da'wah. The main issue araises when the sisters want to take full control, and then we complain where are the brothers? And when brothers take full control and don't allow the sisters to help them maintain it.

They're not with us, because we're not allowing them to be what they've been created for and that is to be the maintainers of women, and inshaAllah the da'wah. As the saying goes we're not created to compete - we're created to complete. When we understand this and don't fall into the brother bashing, and sister bashing - will we trully be successful inshaAllah.

Also, you don't raise brothers to their worth by bashing them (I have a father and awesome brother alhamdulillah) you raise them up by telling them what they're worth and building them up.

Also, in regards to brothers getting intimidated by successful sisters - this is not fully true (for some sadly it is!), we have to be careful we don't fall for the steroptypes we hear and even the specific cases we go through - though of course everyone is different and it may apply to some, though it's the one for all and all for one mentality, a brother will have what he strives for, and so shall a sister. If you want a mother, or father for your child who will add value to 'your' childs life, then you need to find someone who is successful in some sense, and then you can compromise inshaAllah. This is done, and if it's not then they're not meant to be.

And Allah 'azza wa jal knows Best.

Ps. Please feel free to add a few smilies in all the right places...

blue.believer
08-25-2010, 11:39 AM
Masha'Allah sister Alima, what you said is very true.

You are right, I did generalize too much in my previous post. The things I mentionned do not apply to all brothers and they don't apply to all sisters.

The "insecurity syndrome" is present but alhamdulillah, many brothers don't think that way.

Phil Massie
08-26-2010, 02:39 PM
Asalam Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Mash Allah,

The reason why brothers tend to <lay off> when sisters are firm/confident/leaders is cause we learned not to get in the way of our mothers.

Either way, our Ummah needs to be raised by strong women. Mash Allah keep it up sisters!

Asalam Alaikum

mraza1
08-28-2010, 05:22 AM
masahallah many of you are saying some insightful things :)

I just wanted to reiterate what blue.believer said about the strong woman who were promised paradise: Khadija (RA), Asiyah (RA), Fatima (RA) and Maryam (RA). The favoriate wife of the Prophet (SAWS) (Khadija), the beautiful mannered wife of a tyrant (Asiyah), the daughter of the prophet (Fatima), and the example for all women in the Quran (Maryam)....they were all, and correct me if I'm wrong: strong, assertive, successful, and authoritative. My suggestion is that brothers don't need to be afarid of disobedience from sisters who have these qualities, and don't think they're like their mothers.

Why?
1. women must be assertive to raise a family
2. women who are strong-willed, are often hard workers
3. women who are authoritative are also often good mothers
4. women who are successful, are also often intelligent

when it comes to obedience, the truth is, women forget that they CAN do whatever they want, but if they want to please allah they should obey their husband and work with him to make decisions for the whole family.

and I think men sometimes forget, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, that although their right is obedience their duty is also consulting with their wife to make decisions, just like the prophet (SAWS) did, and Abraham (AS) (Ibrahim AS) did when he had to slaughter his son -- he asked him basically "Allah has asked me to slaughter you....is that okay?" and his son replied "You should do whatever Allah (SWT) has commanded you"

So, it's not about, "let me change my job up and move my family as I want when I want" it's about working together to make a decision that's good for the whole family. And it's not about let's move now, or let's not move at all -- it's about "if we must move, then WHEN should we move....before or after or in the middle of the year when the kids are in school?"

I think it's about working together. because you see, marriage is like a corporation....if there were 2 CEOs the whole thing could crash because the two people wouldn't be able to agree on things! so one person needs to be in charge, but the decisions need to be arrived at together. the company would also crash if ONE person made all the decisions without consulting and discussing it with the people he's leading. how detrimental it would be if the LEADER of the corporation, or family, in this case, would get up, and decide something without eliciting advice and consultation from the people under him! so, insha allah may allah (SWT) give us all guidance, pious husbands, wives :) I look forward to everyone's responses :)




Muslim men, earn your wife's respect. You are our guardians, not so that you can bully us around, but because Allah chose you to look after us. If you want your wife to 'obey' you, win her over first. Earn her love, trust, and respect. A loving and caring man is very irresistable. Remember, the way to a woman's heart is thru her soul.

Faizan
08-30-2010, 11:51 PM
You have to learn to let go of the small things in life. Otherwise, you will have way to many gray hairs. Especially in marriage, from the Prophet (s)'s example we learn that he would let go of things his wives did. The story of Aishah (rA) following the Prophet (s) at night to see what He(s) was doing... only to find him visiting a grave and then running back home to make sure she(rA) got there before the Prophet (s) did... The Prophet(s) asked her(rA) why she was out of breath and she(rA) quickly changed the subject... the Prophet(s) did not go back to the subject and continue the questioning... He(s) was merciful to his wife.

We should be the type of people that are the most merciful to those that are the closest to us. Everyone in the world is going to have a bad day once in a while. Yes, even men with fist length beards and sisters who are munaqaba have bad days.

You married the person because Allah put some love between you and them. Remember back to those lonely nights when you prayed to Allah for someone. Remember the times when you went home from Islamic events all alone. Remember the time you had to pick up something heavy every day because there was no one strong around you. Remember the day that you didn't have someone soft and feminine to hold on to.

On the topic itself...
I'm not sure what exactly the original thought was but I don't think I could marry someone who didn't have strong opinions. Someone who didn't have a little bit of a fire in their belly. Meaning they would have to be feminine and soft but at the same time their mind is quick and intelligent. Actually I look forward to having deep conversations with my wife. I hope she can carry strong opinions. I hope she is very intelligent. Someone with a strong faith and a strong desire to continue learning that faith. Someone really competitive.

Naima Abdulkadir
08-31-2010, 10:52 PM
It's really upsetting to see only hadith about men being our protectors and how we should obey them and blah blah, but we never see the other side and how Muslim men should treat their wives and what the punishment is for those men that mistreat their wives. I hate the double standard in our community.

Naima Abdulkadir
09-01-2010, 12:33 AM
Why don't you share some of those hadeeth with us sister?

I think we would all benefit from it.

Since the sisters are always pointing how to be righteous wives, perhaps the brothers could share advice on how to become better husbands.

Asha
09-01-2010, 04:29 PM
However, when it comes to being active in the community, brothers tend to back off if the sister is : 1. Assertive, 2. Strong Willed, 3. Successful, 4. Authoritative.

If you display this, muslim men will run from you like you are a walking plague. I've seen it happen. You have too.

Why? This is the eye of the storm, the core of the issue, THE thing most of the sisters who posted on this thread want to know....

When many muslim men look at potential muslim wives, they look for signs and indicators.

Indicators of what?

Obediance.


This behavior is mainly due to two things which were summarized by a beloved Sheikh of mine who so eloquently said:

"The problems in society (referring to gender relations and marriage) come from two things:

1.When men start thinking that they are superior to women.
2.When women want to be exactly like men."

On the money isn't it? If you have an ounce of humility in you, you have to admit that this is true.


I don't know about you, but those are words I would use to describe Maryam, Assiya, Fatima and Khadija (May Allah be pleased with them all). And they were the best of women; nobody today comes close to them. And no one can argue that. If somebody displays these traits, don't get scared and look for other things that you are seeking.

Please share your thoughts and please do correct me if I am wrong.

And Allah surely knows best. Asalamu Alaykum

SubhanAllah,the last part there was the same advice I gave a close friend.
She was the ideal muslimah, she was a leader, a student of knowledge, and had great mannerisms. As the President of her MSA, she took it upon herself to make sure nothing forbidden would happen under her leadership, both brothers and sisters respected and even feared her lol....YET she was the most sweetest, gentlest sister you could ever imagine. NO brother would know that, but of course we wouldnt be bani Adam if we didn't make generalizations.

She used to worry about marriage but those who fear Allah and do things for his sake will never be forgotten. She, dare I say, married one of the best brothers in the state of California.

This rant is for sisters who are the wannabe Aisha (RA), Asiya(AS), Fathima(RA) and Maryam (AS). This goes to me first and foremost, never despair.

We live in a very passive world where we have all forgotten our roles.
Pants or skirts, someone has to lead this ummah and/or at least lead their family.


Asha

P.S Many active sisters that I know are waiting patiently for a brother who is going to "put them in their place" (in a nice way) but they cant seem to find what their looking for...lets start a thread on that ;)

blue.believer
09-02-2010, 12:28 AM
Pants or skirts, someone has to lead this ummah and/or at least lead their family.

Word.

mraza1
09-06-2010, 07:49 AM
Asha

P.S Many active sisters that I know are waiting patiently for a brother who is going to "put them in their place" (in a nice way) but they cant seem to find what their looking for...lets start a thread on thatjazakallah khairun for your words of wisdom...and words of hope, at that, Sr. Asha! I concur...let's start a thread on active sisters finding their, dare I say, "better half" =) not in matrimonial services kiknda way....just tips from sisters, and brothers =), who've been there, done that, and have happy successful marriages insha allah. what do you all say?

Shezena
09-12-2010, 09:37 PM
Great idea Mariam! Too many practicing Muslims are single and growingly hopeless. :/

IamMuslim!
10-12-2010, 10:37 AM
This is just my personal opinion as a muslimah on this topic. I think that sincerely from the bottom of my heart the problem is with us sisters. I fear that we are becoming too "westernized"...

And yes I would say this goes for the "no one", MSA presidents, Ameera's, etc. We simply do not have enough living role models to follow. I speak to myself first.
When I got married, I OVER exaggerated my obedience to my husband. And it still wasn't enough sometimes because my upbringing was that I am on the same footing as any man in anything no matter what and that housewife and motherhood are trivial.

So, we are told and whether we consciously take this or not that we are and have the same rights as the man. (WHICH IS BOGUS) because we are different.

I blame this society and ourselves first before the brothers. And if the sisters aren't the ones telling themselves they are not the ones who need to change, it's the brothers! Well, then we have a problem.

This thread is leaning toward marriage, so I will just end with this. When I educate myself on Islam, the responsibility of being a housewife, duties of being a mother that takes up all of my time and I certainly find that my household and inshallah my children will have the best.

The problem is that we sisters all need to step back, MAKE DUA for a husband or whatever, and look at our responsibilities in the family because I guarantee you that once you listen to Muhammad Alshareef's "How to be a good muslim wife" you will find so many avenues to look into learning about how to raise a family, being a dutiful wife, etc that you simply won't have time for anything else if you are sincerely wanting to get married.

AABMNIL
01-10-2011, 10:11 AM
...

"Hmmm mashallah that sister is really nice I wonder if she is looking..."

"Brother fulan, I am interested in sister fulana can u ask your wife to look into this?"

Brother fulan talks to his wife she finds out the details. You track down her dad and leave the rest in Allah hands. Networking is important.

The only problem I see with this is that the majority if not all single brothers friends are single brothers. More single, Muslims and Muslimahs, need to start hanging with married folks, so y'all married folks can hook us up, or so at least give us channel to the 'other world', that seems to be separating the brothers and the sisters.