Dhikhr-beads!

[mehr_muslimah]

Asalamu-alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh!
Okay this has been bugging me fr quite a while...is the use of dhikr-beads/misbaha bid'ah? What about those electronic ones?
JazakAllah khair!

[Abd- Allah]

Assalam Alaikum

Lets ask ourselves first, did Dhikr beads exist at the time of the prophet peace be upon him ? - NO

How did the prophet peace be upon him do Dhikr ? - on his right hand fingers.

How did the prophet peace be upon him instruct his companions to do Dhikr ? - on their right hand fingers, because on the day of judgement, they will speak and witness for you that you used them to remember Allah.

After the prophet had passed away and some people started new innovations, What was the companions' reactions to when they saw some people doing Dhikr on something other than their right hand ? - Ibn Mas'oud saw a woman who was doing Dhikr on some beads or something, so he broke them for her and threw them, and then he saw a man doing Dhikr using stones, so he kicked him and told him that this is an innovation! So the companions denounced those new innovations when they saw them.

Now, we all know as the hadith says "the best of guidance is the guidance of prophet Muhammad", so it is best for us to follow his guidance and do Dhikr on our right hand fingers.

Allah knows best.

[Nihalk1]

The act of using dhikr beads is not considered an act of worship...so how can it be bida'ah?

[Ibn Abi Ukhti]

BismiLlah,

Wa 'Alaykum Assalam,

I just wanted to quote the following hadith:

Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas رضي الله عنه said that along with Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه و سلم he once visited a woman in front of whom were some datestones or pebbles which she was using [to keep count] in glorifying Allah سبحان و تعالى. Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه و سلم said, "Shall I not tell you something which would be easier (or better) for you than that? [and he told her it consisted of saying, ...] [Sunan Abi Dawud & Sunan Al Tirmidhi, hasan]

[Abd- Allah]

The act of using dhikr beads is not considered an act of worship...so how can it be bida'ah?
Oh, it is not considered an act of worship ??? Then what is it considered ?

Making Dhikr is considered worship, I think there is consensus among the scholars on this one.

[Nihalk1]

Making dhikr is an act of worship but using the masbahah isn't.

[Abd- Allah]

BismiLlah,

Wa 'Alaykum Assalam,

I just wanted to quote the following hadith:

Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas رضي الله عنه said that along with Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه و سلم he once visited a woman in front of whom were some datestones or pebbles which she was using [to keep count] in glorifying Allah سبحان و تعالى. Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه و سلم said, "Shall I not tell you something which would be easier (or better) for you than that? [and he told her it consisted of saying, ...] [Sunan Abi Dawud & Sunan Al Tirmidhi, hasan]Assalam Alaikum

Sheikh Albani has classified this hadith as Weak. Check Da'eef Abi Dawud, hadith # 1500.

[Abd- Allah]

Making dhikr is an act of worship but using the masbahah isn't.
But you are using the masbahah to make dhikr, so it becomes part of it. You can carry a masbahah around all you want, but the moment you start using it to make dhikr then it becomes part of an act of worship and therefore an innovation.

[Yusuf513Khan]

But you are using the masbahah to make dhikr, so it becomes part of it. You can carry a masbahah around all you want, but the moment you start using it to make dhikr then it becomes part of an act of worship and therefore an innovation.I think you would need to prove the point that something that aids in an act of worship becomes an act of worship itself (and thus needs to have evidence in our texts)...

If I use a camel/car/bike to get to the masjid to pray Isha...does it become a part of worship and thus, would have to see if there was evidence to see if such things were used to aid in my worship?

Among some of the Ulema of our time (such as Sh. Fawzan, Sh. Uthaymeen r, etc.) have allowed dhikr beads among other evidences. One of these is the understanding that "counting" is not an act of worship, and thus the beads are not bid'a, since the purpose of the fingers is to count the act of worship which is the dhikr itself.

Although nobody disagrees using the hand is better as it is authentically in the Sunnah.

This is not a fatwa. Just some information (from my limited understanding) to show there are other sides to the equation and not cut and dry as some may make.

Allahualam

[Yusuf513Khan]

Assalam Alaikum

Sheikh Albani has classified this hadith as Weak. Check Da'eef Abi Dawud, hadith # 1500.Is there any ikhtilaaf on the authenticity of this hadith? Has anybody graded this hadith or hadith like it authentic?

[Ibn Abi Ukhti]

BismiLlah,

Imam Al Tirmidhi رحمه الله has said its hasan

Plus Yusuf513Khan bro, there is also a hadith which says that every step to masjid is Sadaqah and we know sadaqah is also worship thus even going to the Masjid with intention to pray in congregation is 'ibadah and indeed Allah سبحانه و تعالى knows best

[Yusuf513Khan]

BismiLlah,

Imam Al Tirmidhi رحمه الله has said its hasan

Plus Yusuf513Khan, there is also a hadith which says that every step to masjid is Sadaqah and we know sadaqah is also worship thus even going to the Masjid with intention to pray in congregation is 'ibadah and indeed Allah سبحانه و تعالى knows bestjazakAllahukhair,

So that brings me to what I was saying earlier. We can make an analogy.

Since walking to the Masjid for prayer is a worship, if we do otherwise, is this a bid'a?

analogy

If we're saying that using fingers is an act of worship, if we do otherwise is this is a bid'a?

(although this analogy might not be complete, since from what you stated above, walking is an act of worship making the daleel qat'ee as opposed to counting fingers looking as though it is dhanni?).

[Abd- Allah]

jazakAllahukhair,

So that brings me to what I was saying earlier. We can make an analogy.

Since walking to the Masjid for prayer is a worship, if we do otherwise, is this a bid'a?

analogy

If we're saying that using fingers is an act of worship, if we do otherwise is this is a bid'a?

(although this analogy might not be complete, since from what you stated above, walking is an act of worship making the daleel qat'ee as opposed to counting fingers looking as though it is dhanni?).Assalam Alaikum akhi

the analogy you are trying to make is not applicable here, because if you use a car to drive to the masjid instead of the camel, then the way you get to the masjid does not go into your act of worship itself which is praying in the masjid, and your prayer in the masjid is exactly the same as it would be whether you drove, walked, or rode a camel to the masjid. Where as with the prayer beads, then it is a part of the act of worship itself, and it changes the way that this act of worship is done. So for example, if I go into a masjid and watch the people praying, I won't be able to tell how did each of them come to the masjid, whether by car or walking or on a camel, but if I walk into the masjid and see the people doing dhikr, some with prayer beads and some on their right hand, then I can tell which ones did which. So the analogy of driving a car to the masjid instead of riding a camel doesn't quite fit here.

As for the excuse people use that they use it to keep count, then as far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong, but the biggest number of any dhikr mentioned in the authentic sunnah is a 100, so you wouldn't need to count more than a 100 for any dhikr, and counting a 100 on your fingers isn't hard that you would need a masbahah to keep track. Now if someone says that they want to do more than the 100 times of each dhikr which were mentioned in the sunnah, then lets remind ourselves that "the best of guidance is the guidance of prophet Muhammad". May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

[Ibn Abi Ukhti]

BismiLlah,

^^ Interesting stuff bro. Don't know if counting the fingers thing is considered as dhanni. And if dhanni then in which way, dalalah or riwayah? So it get complicated as we go on.

We need to get a proper understanding of the meaning of Bid'ah first then we can continue our discussion

[Ibn Abi Ukhti]

BismiLlah,

actually bro Abd-Allah, your dhikr would be the same if you used masbahah or not. (I am not sure if masbahah is allowed or not)

[Abd- Allah]

Another thing is that the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him ordered his companions to use their right hand fingers to make tasbeeh, so it is part of the act of worship.

Another issue is that if this wasn't wrong, then why would Ibn Mas'oud when he saw a woman who was doing Dhikr on some beads, he broke them for her and threw them, and then when he saw a man doing Dhikr using stones, he kicked him and told him that this is an innovation ? Do you really think that if this was something ok and allowed and not an innovation, then do you think Ibn Mas'oud would have been so harsh in denouncing it ?

[Abd- Allah]

BismiLlah,

actually bro Abd-Allah, your dhikr would be the same if you used masbahah or not. (I am not sure if masbahah is allowed or not)
No akhi it wouldn't, maybe the words would be the same, but the way would be different. So just like when 2 people are saying the tashahhud during prayer, if both said the same words for the tashahhud, but one pointed with his finger towards the qiblah during the entire tashahhud while the other person did not do that, then we can not say that they made the same tashahhud even though they both said the same words. So the dhikr would have the same words maybe, but not the same form or way, and as we know, the way in which acts of worship are performed are part of the act of worship, like you can only perform salah in this way. So I am talking here about the way of performing dhikr, and this is part of the act of worship itself.

[Yusuf513Khan]

Assalam Alaikum akhi

the analogy you are trying to make is not applicable here, because if you use a car to drive to the masjid instead of the camel, then the way you get to the masjid does not go into your act of worship itself which is praying in the masjid, and your prayer in the masjid is exactly the same as it would be whether you drove, walked, or rode a camel to the masjid.
Wa alaikum as salaam,

I don't think I see how it's not applicable coming from the stance of using fingers as a means to count, as the actual worship is the dhikr.

Basically what I'm saying is both walking to the masjid facilitates you praying in the masjid, just as counting on your fingers facilitates you to make dhikr feel me? Thus, the question arises, if we do something different from the facilitation that has been narrated in the sunnah, is it a bid'a?

Where as with the prayer beads, then it is a part of the act of worship itself, and it changes the way that this act of worship is done. Again I am not seeing how the prayer beads are an act of worship in of itself, as it is a means to facilitate the worship (if needed, ie. you can't keep count).


...and counting a 100 on your fingers isn't hard that you would need a masbahah to keep track.This is actually subjective and cannot be used as a proof. Nonetheless, I see your point as a supportive evidence maybe?

Now if someone says that they want to do more than the 100 times of each dhikr which were mentioned in the sunnah, then lets remind ourselves that "the best of guidance is the guidance of prophet Muhammad". May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.Agreed.

jazakAllahukhair for your input.

PS Attached is a well written article on the difference of opinion on the matter...

[mehr_muslimah]

Assalam Alaikum

Lets ask ourselves first, did Dhikr beads exist at the time of the prophet peace be upon him ? - NO

How did the prophet peace be upon him do Dhikr ? - on his right hand fingers.

How did the prophet peace be upon him instruct his companions to do Dhikr ? - on their right hand fingers, because on the day of judgement, they will speak and witness for you that you used them to remember Allah.

After the prophet had passed away and some people started new innovations, What was the companions' reactions to when they saw some people doing Dhikr on something other than their right hand ? - Ibn Mas'oud saw a woman who was doing Dhikr on some beads or something, so he broke them for her and threw them, and then he saw a man doing Dhikr using stones, so he kicked him and told him that this is an innovation! So the companions denounced those new innovations when they saw them.

Now, we all know as the hadith says "the best of guidance is the guidance of prophet Muhammad", so it is best for us to follow his guidance and do Dhikr on our right hand fingers.

Allah knows best.
jazakAllah khair!

[Abd- Allah]

jazakAllah khair!
Wa iyyakum.

Imam Malik Ibn Anas, may Allah have mercy on him, said: "Whosoever introduces into Islam an innovation, which he deems is good, then he has claimed that Muhammad (peace be upon him) has betrayed (the trust of conveying) the Message. Read the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Majestic: 'This day I have completed your Religion for you, and I have perfected My favor upon you, and I am pleased with Islam as a Religion for you.' [Surat-ul-Maa’idah:3] So whatever was not (part of) the Religion on that day, is not (part of) the Religion on this day. And the last part of this ummah (nation) will not be rectified, except by that which rectified its first part."

There is a long hadith reported in Bukhari and Muslim which mentions 3 men who came to the prophet's house and asked his wives about how the prophet's way of worship was, and at the end of the hadith, the prophet peace be upon him says: "Whoever turns away from my Sunnah has nothing to do with me.”

[Mobeen Vaid]

Sorry I just dont see anything constructive coming out of this thread anymore :( it's locked until another moderator or one of the shuyukh see fit to reopen it.