Imam Ahmad allowing tawassul through Prophet(sa)?

[shargiya]

Salam alaikum Shaikh, this excerpt which I am going to post is from a brother on a web-site in their 'beliefs' forum. This confused me a bit, it kind of says I think that tawassul through the Prophet was allowed by Imam Ahmad, if u could please clarify if there is any validity to this.

BEGIN

The Hanbalis are divided over the issue of Tawassul through the Prophet - SallAllahu 'alaihi wa-sallam, primarily because Imam Ahmad said to al-Marrudhi (his closest student), "One should make Tawassul through the Prophet".

Referring to all the books of Fiqh (nearly) by the Hanbalis who came after Ibn Taymiyah, one notices that when they mention this issue, they immediately follow it up with the opinion and understanding of Ibn Taymiyah on this issue.

Ibn Taymiyah says that in light of the fact that Ahmad allowed one to swear an oath by the Prophet, he also allowed one to make Tawassul through him. The other narration from Ahmad forbids one from swearing an oath by the Prophet, and hence, it could be extracted from this narration the prohibition of making Tawassul through the Prophet as well.

The reason why Imam Ahmad allowed one to swear an oath by the Prophet, is because the Prophet SallAllahu 'Alahi wa-sallam is twin-half of the testimony of faith, so the one swearing by the Prophet is as if he is swearing by Allah. Hence, he allowed it, and said that the one breaks such oath must make Kaffarah. This is why Imam Ahmad restricted the permissibility of Tawassul as well as oath by the Prophet SallAllahu 'aliahi wa-sallam only.

According to the other narration, however, such is not the case, and likewise, one may not make Tawassul through the Prophet.

However, one may make Tawassul through his love for the Prophet, etc…

Having said that, one should remember – as Sheikh Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab said – that this issue is an issue of khilaf (legitimate difference of opinion) and one may not condemn another for doing, or not doing Tawassul through the Prophets and the righteous people.
The Hanbalis are divided over the issue of Tawassul through the Prophet - SallAllahu 'alaihi wa-sallam, primarily because Imam Ahmad said to al-Marrudhi (his closest student), "One should make Tawassul through the Prophet".

Referring to all the books of Fiqh (nearly) by the Hanbalis who came after Ibn Taymiyah, one notices that when they mention this issue, they immediately follow it up with the opinion and understanding of Ibn Taymiyah on this issue.

Ibn Taymiyah says that in light of the fact that Ahmad allowed one to swear an oath by the Prophet, he also allowed one to make Tawassul through him. The other narration from Ahmad forbids one from swearing an oath by the Prophet, and hence, it could be extracted from this narration the prohibition of making Tawassul through the Prophet as well.

The reason why Imam Ahmad allowed one to swear an oath by the Prophet, is because the Prophet SallAllahu 'Alahi wa-sallam is twin-half of the testimony of faith, so the one swearing by the Prophet is as if he is swearing by Allah. Hence, he allowed it, and said that the one breaks such oath must make Kaffarah. This is why Imam Ahmad restricted the permissibility of Tawassul as well as oath by the Prophet SallAllahu 'aliahi wa-sallam only.

According to the other narration, however, such is not the case, and likewise, one may not make Tawassul through the Prophet.

However, one may make Tawassul through his love for the Prophet, etc…

Having said that, one should remember – as Sheikh Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab said – that this issue is an issue of khilaf (legitimate difference of opinion) and one may not condemn another for doing, or not doing Tawassul through the Prophets and the righteous people.

[Abu Ammaar]

Salaam Alaikum

I believe this issue was discussed in another folder in this forum.

As I said there, I have not (as of yet) come across an isnaad back to Imam Ahamd about this narraiton, but yes, the books of fiqh do attribute this opinion (and a contrary one - as is common for the narrations of his opinions) to him.

As for not making inkaar, that is rather general. Just becuase there is a khilaaf on an issue doesn't mean that we don't make inkaar if we believe that one of the two opinions is stronger than the other. However, it may be said that this issue has some evidences that are used by the other group, and is not as clear cut as other issues.

In fact, Ibn Taymiyyah himself made inkaar of this issue and wrote an entire book explaining his point of view (at-Tawassul wa al-Waseelah).

And Allah knows best...

Yasir

[Danish Hasan]

If its not too much to ask...when they refer to tawassul through the Prophet(SAW), what is an example of the kind of tawassul was allowed by Imam Ahmad....

I dont knwo if i was clear with that..

[Doc2be]

Bismillaah wal'hamdulillaah was'salaatul was salaamu 3la Nabi Allaah;

As'salaamu 3laykum,

I started the thread prior to this one on seeking tawassul by way of Nabi Allaah (sal Allaahu 3layhi was-salaam). I would like to mention my findings here as I have researched this matter with regards to it's authenticy. As regards to your first claim that this was something in which was approved by the Imaam's of old, as bro. Yasir mentioned, there is no clear proof for this claim. It is said that Imaam Ahmad allowed tawassul by means of the Messenger (sal Allaahu 3layhi was'salaam) alone, and as well Imaam ash-Shawkaanee allowed tawassul by means of him and other Prophets and the Righteous. However, we Ahli Sunnaah, those people whom cling to what has been reveald from Allaah and His Messenger (sal Allaahu 3layhi was'salaam) and in all matters where there is disagreement, follow whatever is supported by daleel (proof), without making taqleed (blind following) of the opinions of men. We cling to the truth, so with regards to tawassul by means of any created being, if one can not find anything to support this claim, then it must be denied.

What has been proven correct, and practied by our Pious Predeccessors, which there is ijmaa of the Muslims is of three types:

1.) Tawassul by means of the Names of Allaah azza wajal

2.) Tawassul by means of a righteous action which the person who supplicating has done (i.e. " O Allaah by my emaan in You, and or for my love for You").

3.) Tawassul by means of supplication made by a righteous man (i.e. Anas Ibn Maalik, radiyAllaahu anhu reports, saying: " The people were afflicted with drought in the time of the Prophet (sal Allaahu 3layhi was'salaam), so whilst the Prophet (3layhi salaatul was salaam) was giving the khutbag, standing, on the day of Jumu'ah a bedouin stood {and in the narration: entered}{from the people of the desert} through a door which faced the minbar near to the house sold for the repayment of a debt, and Allaah's Messenger (sal Allaahu 3layhi was salaam) was standing. So he stood facing Allaah's Messenger() and said: " O Messenger of Allaah, the livestock are dying and the children are hungry, so supplicate to Allaah for us (that He should give us rain, or downpour." So he raised his hands and supplicated (until I saw the whiteness of his armpits): " O Allaah bles us with rain, O Allaah bless us with rain." And the people raised their hands along with him supplicating...........

This as well as many other authentic narrations support this means of tawassul, such as the saying of any one of us "Ya Shaykh Yasir, make du'3a for me", because of his good character and steadfastness upon the Qur'an and Sunnaah, Insha'Allaah.

However, what I mentioned with the sister's halaqa I sat in on, was their saying " Ya Allaah, by the "rank" of Muhammad, by the "honor" of Nabi Allaah (sal Allaahu 3layhi was'salaam). This is from the type of tawassul that is not found and or proven true or permissible, w'Allaahu Alim. Among the aforementioned types of tawassul by way of any person, nor their rank, or their rights this shows that this does NOT enter into the general waseelah, as Br. Yasir mentioned.

I recommend a book to by which you may gain clarity on this subject; Tawassul It's Types & It's Rulings, By Sh. Muhammad Al-Albaanee (raheemahu'llaah)

w'Allaahu Alim!

[Abu Ubaydah]

I would like to mention my findings here as I have researched this matter with regards to it's authenticy. Will it be possible for you to share the sources that were used in the aforementioned research? It will in sha' Allah help me a great deal in my own studies.

Jazakum Allahu Khairan
Was salaam 'alaykum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh

[Danish Hasan]

I recommend a book to by which you may gain clarity on this subject; Tawassul It's Types & It's Rulings, By Sh. Muhammad Al-Albaanee (raheemahu'llaah)

w'Allaahu Alim!

I also would liek to reccommend this book...it could be bought as well as available free from a few websites

http://forums.gawaher.com/index.php?showforum=62

2nd last book on the above link is the book

A lot of times the ones who encourage the acts of tawassul thru saints and prophets tell you to read nuh ha mim's chapter on tawassul, which is in his book reliance of the traveller.

I had a question about the folowing section form an article that summarizes the section on tawassul.

It is well known that a companion of the Prophet (Salla Allahu 'alayhi wasallam), Bilal ibn al-Harith, went to the grave of the Prophet (Salla Allahu 'alayhi wasallam) when there was a drought, and said:

"O Messenger of Allah, ask Allah to give rain to your Ummah; they are close to perish..."

It is correct to call what he did tawassul and istighathah (seeking or asking for help), because he went to the grave of the Messenger (Salla Allahu 'alayhi wasallam) asking him to save them from the calamity that hit them by him asking Allahu Ta'ala to give them rain. The Huffaz Al-Baihaqi, and Ibn Kathir (in his "Tarikh") said that this hadeeth is SAHIH. In the issue of tawassul, Ibn Kathir adhered to the majority of Sunni ulema and agreed to the permissibility of tawassul.

The author claims tha this is sahih but al albani graded it unreliable.....but my question is what is the actual matn of this naration??

[Danish Hasan]

One more thing was cna someoen give me a link to the old thread regardign this??

[Doc2be]

One more thing was cna someoen give me a link to the old thread regardign this??

http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=9653

[Danish Hasan]

http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=9653

JazakAllahu Khairan

[Danish Hasan]

I had a question about the folowing section form an article that summarizes the section on tawassul.

It is well known that a companion of the Prophet (Salla Allahu 'alayhi wasallam), Bilal ibn al-Harith, went to the grave of the Prophet (Salla Allahu 'alayhi wasallam) when there was a drought, and said:

"O Messenger of Allah, ask Allah to give rain to your Ummah; they are close to perish..."

It is correct to call what he did tawassul and istighathah (seeking or asking for help), because he went to the grave of the Messenger (Salla Allahu 'alayhi wasallam) asking him to save them from the calamity that hit them by him asking Allahu Ta'ala to give them rain. The Huffaz Al-Baihaqi, and Ibn Kathir (in his "Tarikh") said that this hadeeth is SAHIH. In the issue of tawassul, Ibn Kathir adhered to the majority of Sunni ulema and agreed to the permissibility of tawassul.

The author claims tha this is sahih but al albani graded it unreliable.....but my question is what is the actual matn of this naration??

I wanted a clarification on this hadith and also wanted to kno in what book of hadith is this found

[Danish Hasan]

bump(er) sticker

[abubakr]

it seems to me that most of the scholars were in favour of making tawassul through the status/rank of nabi saw. the imams include imam Nawawi, imam ibn kathir, imam ibn qudamah, imam suyuti, imam subki, imam ghazali. i think imam subki said that imma ibn taymiyah was the first one to reject this kind of tawassul.

[Doc2be]

it seems to me that most of the scholars were in favour of making tawassul through the status/rank of nabi saw. the imams include imam Nawawi, imam ibn kathir, imam ibn qudamah, imam suyuti, imam subki, imam ghazali. i think imam subki said that imma ibn taymiyah was the first one to reject this kind of tawassul.

As'salaamu 3laykum,

Based off WHAT daleel?

[abubakr]

Allamah Nawawi [ra] has mentioned that from among the etiquettes of visiting the grave of Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] one should make Tawassul through Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] to Allah Ta’ala to accept his Du’aas. Thereafter, Allamah Nawawi states, ‘…and one of the best things that one should do is what has been related by Allaamah al-Mawardi [ra], al-Qaadhi Abu Teeb [ra] and all our Ulama and they have all regarded it as commendable, and that is the incident of Imaam al-Utabi [ra] that he said, ‘I was once seated by the grave of Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam], when a Bedouin came and said, ‘Peace be upon you, oh, Messenger of Allah. O Messenger of Allah, I have heard Almighty Allah say in the Qur’aan “And if they, when they had been unjust to themselves, had come to you (Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) and begged Allah’s forgiveness and the messenger had begged forgiveness for them, indeed they would have found Allah All-Forgiving. Most merciful.(Al-Nisaa:64) hence, I have come to you in a state that I seek forgiveness of my sins by seeking your intercession by my Lord’, thereafter he recited a few couplets and departed. Imaam al-Utabi [ra] states, ‘I then fell asleep and I saw Rasulullah [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] instructing me by the words, ‘O Utabi, go to that Bedouin and give him the glad tidings that Almighty Allah has forgiven him.’ (Refer al-Majmoo vol.8 pg.456 – Cairo and Manaasikul-Imaam-Al-Nawawi pg.498-499 Maktabah Salafia).

[abubakr]

Haafiz Shamsud-Deen Al-Sakhawi (RA), the grand student of Haafiz ibn Hajr Al-Asqalaani(RA) made Tawassul on many occasions through Rasulullah [Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam] in his books, see for example Al-Tuhfatul-Lateefah vol.1 pg.3, 17; al-Ibtihaaj bi azkaaril musaafiril haaj



Ibn Qudamah Hanbali, defining the manner of pilgrimage to the shrine of the Prophet (s), writes in the book al-Mughni:

Stand beside the tomb of the Prophet (s), and say: I have come to you for forgiveness of my sins and to seek your intercession with Allah.
(Al-Mughni ma' al-Sharh, vol. 3, p. 588; al-Sharh al-Kabir ma' al-Mughni, vol. 3, p. 494.)

[Doc2be]

Haafiz Shamsud-Deen Al-Sakhawi (RA), the grand student of Haafiz ibn Hajr Al-Asqalaani(RA) made Tawassul on many occasions through Rasulullah [Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam] in his books, see for example Al-Tuhfatul-Lateefah vol.1 pg.3, 17; al-Ibtihaaj bi azkaaril musaafiril haaj



Ibn Qudamah Hanbali, defining the manner of pilgrimage to the shrine of the Prophet (s), writes in the book al-Mughni:

Stand beside the tomb of the Prophet (s), and say: I have come to you for forgiveness of my sins and to seek your intercession with Allah.
(Al-Mughni ma' al-Sharh, vol. 3, p. 588; al-Sharh al-Kabir ma' al-Mughni, vol. 3, p. 494.)

As'salaamu 3laykum

Your posting aren't a proof for anything, where was this type of tawassul made permissible by Allaah and His Messenger (sal Allaahu 3layhi was'salaam)?

All of these statements you've mentioned have been refuted and rebuttled by notable Shyook.

Nabi Allaah (saw) said: "I have not left any thing that will draw you nearer to Allah - except that I have enjoined it upon you. And I have not left anything that will take you away from Allah and draw you to the Fire except that I have forbidden it for you." As well as some one far more knowledgable than you has already commented on this thread. So your postings are pointless

[abubakr]

first of all brother i am salafi alhamdulillah secondly if there are shyukh who have refuted this then please can i see the refutations. these r jus queries which i have posted

[Doc2be]

first of all brother i am salafi alhamdulillah secondly if there are shyukh who have refuted this then please can i see the refutations. these r jus queries which i have posted

Ah'hem, it's SISTER, and most importantly who brought up manhaj. I was in a halaqa with people who claimed they were Ahli Sunnaah, and then turns out the masjid they go to is Shia. So what is your point? As well as since when do we take the opinions of MEN over Allaah azza wjal? Surely they are men and are capable of error. Yasir Qhadi has already commented on this issue, and you are not swaying me on anything. wa'Jazzakumul'llaahu Khryan!

I am done chatting with you.

[ismiyy]

Before being so quick to dismiss anything, go check their books inshaa'Allaah, and see if they mentioned daleel, inshaa'Allaah...

This war of words, so to speak isn't solving anything...and the Shuyoukh he has quoted are rahimahumullaah well known...so it would be interesting to see what they based their stuff off of...

And even more interesting would be to see what Sh. Yasir has to say about these quotes...wa jazaahullaahu khair.

edit: And before anyone starts making assumptions (again, wAllaahul musta'aan) then just understand that I only posted because I didn't like the attitude being shown to someone who asked a question seeking a knowledge based answer.

[Danish Hasan]

Allamah Nawawi [ra] has mentioned that from among the etiquettes of visiting the grave of Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] one should make Tawassul through Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] to Allah Ta’ala to accept his Du’aas. Thereafter, Allamah Nawawi states, ‘…and one of the best things that one should do is what has been related by Allaamah al-Mawardi [ra], al-Qaadhi Abu Teeb [ra] and all our Ulama and they have all regarded it as commendable, and that is the incident of Imaam al-Utabi [ra] that he said, ‘I was once seated by the grave of Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam], when a Bedouin came and said, ‘Peace be upon you, oh, Messenger of Allah. O Messenger of Allah, I have heard Almighty Allah say in the Qur’aan “And if they, when they had been unjust to themselves, had come to you (Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) and begged Allah’s forgiveness and the messenger had begged forgiveness for them, indeed they would have found Allah All-Forgiving. Most merciful.(Al-Nisaa:64) hence, I have come to you in a state that I seek forgiveness of my sins by seeking your intercession by my Lord’, thereafter he recited a few couplets and departed. Imaam al-Utabi [ra] states, ‘I then fell asleep and I saw Rasulullah [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] instructing me by the words, ‘O Utabi, go to that Bedouin and give him the glad tidings that Almighty Allah has forgiven him.’ (Refer al-Majmoo vol.8 pg.456 – Cairo and Manaasikul-Imaam-Al-Nawawi pg.498-499 Maktabah Salafia).

Haafiz Shamsud-Deen Al-Sakhawi (RA), the grand student of Haafiz ibn Hajr Al-Asqalaani(RA) made Tawassul on many occasions through Rasulullah [Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam] in his books, see for example Al-Tuhfatul-Lateefah vol.1 pg.3, 17; al-Ibtihaaj bi azkaaril musaafiril haaj



Ibn Qudamah Hanbali, defining the manner of pilgrimage to the shrine of the Prophet (s), writes in the book al-Mughni:

Stand beside the tomb of the Prophet (s), and say: I have come to you for forgiveness of my sins and to seek your intercession with Allah.
(Al-Mughni ma' al-Sharh, vol. 3, p. 588; al-Sharh al-Kabir ma' al-Mughni, vol. 3, p. 494.)

JazakAllahu Khairan bro abu bakr...

.i just wanted to ask- do you have the entirity of these texts with you or youre just quoting off some websites...if you do then maybe there is more that these shuyookh of the past have mentioned for example like quran and sunnah to support their stance in the works that you referenced....

If we are following these opinions without knowing why then i dont think these hold much weight and if these schoalrs had these opinions without any daleel(Qurana dn Sunnah) then their opinions dont hold too much weight.....Allahu Alim....jazakAllahu Khairan

[Doc2be]

I also would liek to reccommend this book...it could be bought as well as available free from a few websites

http://forums.gawaher.com/index.php?showforum=62

2nd last book on the above link is the book

A lot of times the ones who encourage the acts of tawassul thru saints and prophets tell you to read nuh ha mim's chapter on tawassul, which is in his book reliance of the traveller.

I had a question about the folowing section form an article that summarizes the section on tawassul.

It is well known that a companion of the Prophet (Salla Allahu 'alayhi wasallam), Bilal ibn al-Harith, went to the grave of the Prophet (Salla Allahu 'alayhi wasallam) when there was a drought, and said:

"O Messenger of Allah, ask Allah to give rain to your Ummah; they are close to perish..."

It is correct to call what he did tawassul and istighathah (seeking or asking for help), because he went to the grave of the Messenger (Salla Allahu 'alayhi wasallam) asking him to save them from the calamity that hit them by him asking Allahu Ta'ala to give them rain. The Huffaz Al-Baihaqi, and Ibn Kathir (in his "Tarikh") said that this hadeeth is SAHIH. In the issue of tawassul, Ibn Kathir adhered to the majority of Sunni ulema and agreed to the permissibility of tawassul.

The author claims tha this is sahih but al albani graded it unreliable.....but my question is what is the actual matn of this naration??


As'salaamu 3laykum,

As well I think it is beneficial to mention that I have found the same thing to be true. Everytime a come across a particular site and or person promoting this form of tawassul they refrence this individual as well.

Secondly, from the book by Sh. Naasiruddeen al-Albani (raheemahu'llaah) said in his work about this issue of using the hadeeth; " Those who seek to permit innovated forms of tawassul use many ahadeeth as evidence, but when we consider them we find that they fall into two categories:

1.) Those which are authentic from the Prophet (saw) but do not show what these people claim, nor support their view. For example the hadeeth of the blind man.

2.) Those which are not authentic from Allaah's Messenger (saw), some of them showing what they hold and others which do not indicate that.......

w'Allaahu Alim, not trying to call out anyone but these claims seem to have no basis in truth.

"And I (Allaah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (alone).

Any one, please explain to me the aforementioned ayat, and give it's understanding in-light of tawassul through Nabi Allaah (saw)? The order to do this type of tawassul was surely not established and mentioned by Nabi Allaah (saw) himself.

[abubakr]

both imam nawawi and imam ibn qudamah based their verdicts on the following verse

Had they, when they had wronged themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them, they would certainly have found Allah Most-Propitious, Most-Merciful. (Holy Qur'an 4: 64).

now these scholars alos base their fatwa on the fact that the dead can hear and also the fact that the prophets are alive in their graves.

[Abu Ammaar]

Allamah Nawawi [ra] has mentioned that from among the etiquettes of visiting the grave of Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] one should make Tawassul through Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] to Allah Ta’ala to accept his Du’aas. Thereafter, Allamah Nawawi states, ‘…and one of the best things that one should do is what has been related by Allaamah al-Mawardi [ra], al-Qaadhi Abu Teeb [ra] and all our Ulama and they have all regarded it as commendable, and that is the incident of Imaam al-Utabi [ra] that he said, ‘I was once seated by the grave of Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam], when a Bedouin came and said, ‘Peace be upon you, oh, Messenger of Allah. O Messenger of Allah, I have heard Almighty Allah say in the Qur’aan “And if they, when they had been unjust to themselves, had come to you (Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) and begged Allah’s forgiveness and the messenger had begged forgiveness for them, indeed they would have found Allah All-Forgiving. Most merciful.(Al-Nisaa:64) hence, I have come to you in a state that I seek forgiveness of my sins by seeking your intercession by my Lord’, thereafter he recited a few couplets and departed. Imaam al-Utabi [ra] states, ‘I then fell asleep and I saw Rasulullah [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] instructing me by the words, ‘O Utabi, go to that Bedouin and give him the glad tidings that Almighty Allah has forgiven him.’ (Refer al-Majmoo vol.8 pg.456 – Cairo and Manaasikul-Imaam-Al-Nawawi pg.498-499 Maktabah Salafia).
Salaam Alaikum

I apologize for the delay in responding... extremely busy as usual!! Please be patient as I take time out to respond to these issues one by one.

Let's start with this one.

Firstly, our religion is not based on dreams, regardless of the nobility or scholarship of the one who narrates them.
Secondly, it is not known that the Companions ever came to the grave of the Prophet and asked him for anything, or asked him to ask Allah for anything, despite the fact that there were numerous fitan that happened during their times. In fact the civil war broke out then, yet no one went to the noble grave and asked for anything.
Thirdly, Ibn Abd al-Hadi (d. 744 AH) writes, after refuting this narration in detail, "So to summarize, this unknown narration from a bedioun is not one which is permissible to use as evidence, and additionaly its chain of narration is dark (i.e., contains unknown narrators), and has discrepencies, as does its various wordings. And even if it were confirmed, it would not be an evidence for that which the opponent is seeking to prove. Nor can such a story be used as an evidence (in the Sharee'ah), nor can the people of knowledege depend on something like this. And Allah is the One who guides to success." From his book as-Sarim al-Manki (p. 212-213) which is a refutaiton of as-Subki.

Thirdly, when one understands the implications of uloohiyyah, and that ALL worship is due to Allah alone, and when one also understands the basis of shirk, and the excuses that the Jahiliyyah Arabs used in their worship of other than Allah, there is no need to quote or refute any evidence after that. This understanding of the fundamentals of tawheed is sufficient evidence to destroy this argument, and it was because the early salaf understood tawheed so well that none of them fell into such an act.

Yasir

[Abu Ammaar]

both imam nawawi and imam ibn qudamah based their verdicts on the following verse

Had they, when they had wronged themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them, they would certainly have found Allah Most-Propitious, Most-Merciful. (Holy Qur'an 4: 64).

now these scholars alos base their fatwa on the fact that the dead can hear and also the fact that the prophets are alive in their graves.
The issue of the prophets being 'alive' in their graves is confirmed from the sunnah; however their life is a life of the barzakh, not a life like ours. Just like the shaheed, he dies and his sould is taken (which is the definition of death), but he does not go into non-existence; rather Allah gives him a life that is unique and befitting to him. And the prophets are more deserving of such a life than others.

The issue of the dead hearing is one of the issues that Sunni scholars themselves differed in.

Neither of these two issues justifies asking the dead to do anything; it has not been narrating in any authentic narration that any of the pious predecessors went to the grave of any person or prophet and asked for anything. Surely there is a lesson in that? Or are these later scholars privy to some knowledge that the earlier ones did not have?

Yasir

[Abu Ammaar]

Haafiz Shamsud-Deen Al-Sakhawi (RA), the grand student of Haafiz ibn Hajr Al-Asqalaani(RA) made Tawassul on many occasions through Rasulullah [Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam] in his books, see for example Al-Tuhfatul-Lateefah vol.1 pg.3, 17; al-Ibtihaaj bi azkaaril musaafiril haaj

Ibn Qudamah Hanbali, defining the manner of pilgrimage to the shrine of the Prophet (s), writes in the book al-Mughni:

Stand beside the tomb of the Prophet (s), and say: I have come to you for forgiveness of my sins and to seek your intercession with Allah.
(Al-Mughni ma' al-Sharh, vol. 3, p. 588; al-Sharh al-Kabir ma' al-Mughni, vol. 3, p. 494.)
As-Sakhawi, with all due respect to his knowledge of hadeeth, was not purely upon the 'aqeedah of Ahl as-Sunnah.

Ibn Qudamah - it is ironic you quote him! Are you willing to take his other books as well, such as Lum'at al-'Itiqaad, or Ithbaat al-Uluww, or his statements about the Ash'aris? On what basis do you quote from scholars whom you don't agree with? As for us, our criterion is not what scholars claim, but rather what the Quran and Sunnah states, and the actions and understandings of the early generations of Islam.

Also, this is a mutiliated quote from Ibn Qudamah (I don't know whether you looked it up yourself or took it from someone else who cut and pasted it). If you look up the actual text from al-Mughni (vol 5, p. 466-467), you find that he states a long and neautiful du'aat that should be said when standing in front of the grave of the Prophet - this du'aa is fine and no issues are in it. He then quotes the verse that you mentioned ("If they only came to you...") and says that the person should say, "And I have come to you, seeking forgiveness for my sins (note: it is understood that he is seeking forgiveness from Allah), using you as an intercessor to my Lord. So I ask you, O ALLAH, that YOU forgive me, AS YOU WOULD OBLIGATE IT (i.e., forgiveness) ON THOSE WHO CAME TO HIM IN HIS LIFE. O Allah, make him the first of intercessors, and the most succesful of askers, and the most noble of all people.... "

So note that it is Allah who is being asked, not the Prophet. And note that Ibn Qudamah differentiates between those who came to him in his life and those who come afterwords, and he prays and hopes that Allah will grant him the blessings of those who would come to him in his life.

This also shows that any time a person of deviation quotes anything, it is imperative to go back to the original and look it up in its context.

Yasir

[Doc2be]

Jazzakumul'llaahu Khayran Bro. Yasir! May Allaah azza wajal continue to reward you, and increase you in beneficial knowledge. BTW: You are going to my dream school for graduate studies, Masha"Allaah!!

[Danish Hasan]

JazakAllahu khairan.....

[abubakr]

jazakallah kahir sheikh yasir that has helped to clear a few doubts.

[AbuThalatha]

As-Sakhawi, with all due respect to his knowledge of hadeeth, was not purely upon the 'aqeedah of Ahl as-Sunnah.

Ibn Qudamah - it is ironic you quote him! Are you willing to take his other books as well, such as Lum'at al-'Itiqaad, or Ithbaat al-Uluww, or his statements about the Ash'aris? On what basis do you quote from scholars whom you don't agree with? As for us, our criterion is not what scholars claim, but rather what the Quran and Sunnah states, and the actions and understandings of the early generations of Islam.

Also, this is a mutiliated quote from Ibn Qudamah (I don't know whether you looked it up yourself or took it from someone else who cut and pasted it). If you look up the actual text from al-Mughni (vol 5, p. 466-467), you find that he states a long and neautiful du'aat that should be said when standing in front of the grave of the Prophet - this du'aa is fine and no issues are in it. He then quotes the verse that you mentioned ("If they only came to you...") and says that the person should say, "And I have come to you, seeking forgiveness for my sins (note: it is understood that he is seeking forgiveness from Allah), using you as an intercessor to my Lord. So I ask you, O ALLAH, that YOU forgive me, AS YOU WOULD OBLIGATE IT (i.e., forgiveness) ON THOSE WHO CAME TO HIM IN HIS LIFE. O Allah, make him the first of intercessors, and the most succesful of askers, and the most noble of all people.... "

So note that it is Allah who is being asked, not the Prophet. And note that Ibn Qudamah differentiates between those who came to him in his life and those who come afterwords, and he prays and hopes that Allah will grant him the blessings of those who would come to him in his life.

This also shows that any time a person of deviation quotes anything, it is imperative to go back to the original and look it up in its context.

Yasir


Mashallah,

May Allah grant you, and your lineage the good in this life and in the hearafter, protect you from the fire and grant you with the ferdous, Ameen

[MSalah]

As salaamu aleykum wa rahmatulaah

Shaykh Yasir, jazaakum Allahu khairun for the clarifications. It was very helpful. I have a follow up of a different kind-of question because of a hadith I read that is recorded in Sahih AlBukhari. This hadith is reported by Jaabir ibn 'AbduAllah (radiyal Allahu anhu).

---------
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 588:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever after listening to the Adhan says, 'Allahumma Rabba hadhihi-d-da' watit-tammati was-salatil qa'imati, ati Muhammadan al-wasilata wal-fadilata, wab' athhu maqaman mahmudan-il-ladhi wa' adtahu (O Allah! Lord of this perfect call {of not ascribing partners to You} and of the regular prayer which is going to be established! Kindly give Muhammad the right of intercession and superiority and send him {on the Day of Judgment} to the best and the highest place in Paradise which You promised him)', then intercession for me will be permitted for him on the Day of Resurrection".
-------------
Question:
Ustaadh, I have seen this duaa being said by many people in very different ways. And soo far I can't find other narrations of this hadith.
1) Some people added "Sayeddinaa" before "ati Muhammadan" (salaal Allahu aleyhi wa salim).
2) Some people have added, "Wa Darajatul 'Aliyah Rafii'a" before "Wab' athhu maqaman".

In sha Allah, I want to know whats wrong with these forms of additions to the du'aa.

Jazaakum Allahu khairun

[MSalah]

As salaamu aleykum

Also, I wanted to know, if it is probable that these addtions to the du'aa are being used as a way to highthen the argument that wasilat exits in the dunya?

Jazaakum Allahu khairun Shaykh Yasir.
Wa salaamu aleykum

[imported_M3een ibn 3li]

As salaamu aleykum wa rahmatulaah

Shaykh Yasir, jazaakum Allahu khairun for the clarifications. It was very helpful. I have a follow up of a different kind-of question because of a hadith I read that is recorded in Sahih AlBukhari. This hadith is reported by Jaabir ibn 'AbduAllah (radiyal Allahu anhu).

---------
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 588:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever after listening to the Adhan says, 'Allahumma Rabba hadhihi-d-da' watit-tammati was-salatil qa'imati, ati Muhammadan al-wasilata wal-fadilata, wab' athhu maqaman mahmudan-il-ladhi wa' adtahu (O Allah! Lord of this perfect call {of not ascribing partners to You} and of the regular prayer which is going to be established! Kindly give Muhammad the right of intercession and superiority and send him {on the Day of Judgment} to the best and the highest place in Paradise which You promised him)', then intercession for me will be permitted for him on the Day of Resurrection".
-------------
Question:
Ustaadh, I have seen this duaa being said by many people in very different ways. And soo far I can't find other narrations of this hadith.
1) Some people added "Sayeddinaa" before "ati Muhammadan" (salaal Allahu aleyhi wa salim).
2) Some people have added, "Wa Darajatul 'Aliyah Rafii'a" before "Wab' athhu maqaman".

In sha Allah, I want to know whats wrong with these forms of additions to the du'aa.

Jazaakum Allahu khairunAssalaam 'Alaikum

I'd like to know this as well because I see it happening a lot in the South Asian communities. What are the basis for these additions?

Jazakum Allahu Khair

M3een

[Abu Ammaar]

Salaam Alaikum

The addition of the word 'sayyidina' is not problematic at all, as indeed the beloved prophet is our 'sayyid' and the 'sayyid' of all the children of Adam. However, it is best to stick with the words narrated in the hadeeth.

The phrase '...wa ad-daraja al-3aaliayh' as far as I know does not exist in an authentic hadeeth. However you cannot derive anything wrong from it... as we will explain this weekend insha Allah.

Yasir

[ibnwalid]

as-Salamu 'alaykum,

Shaykh Yasir, I have a question about this du'a after the adhan and an ayah- some people say that al-Maqam al-Mahmud is the shafa'ah of Rasul Allah (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam)- others say it includes the 'Arsh etc. What is right?

[Abu Ammaar]

Salaam Alaikum

For those who can read Arabic, there is an excellent discussion of this issue...can anyone who reads Arabic volunteer to summarize it for this forum?

Also in general this is a superb web-site with excellent academic discussions in many areas of Islam.

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31169 (http://www.ahlalhadeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?=t31169)

Yasir

[Tariq Nelson]

as-Salaam alaykum,

The link above is dead

[Bint AbdelHamid]

The link above is dead

Wa alaikum assalam,

Try copying and pasting the address. That should work in sha' Allah.

[Abu Hurayrah]

It's not just dead - the URL has seemingly expired and is not pointing to a generic domain-holding site (in this case, a flukey search engine of sorts).

[Abu Hurayrah]

I would like to say, also, that we need to be careful in how we deal with each other. I saw in this thread some manners I would not like to see repeated on this forum, and I don't want to call anyone out on it.

I just want to throw out the reminder - think before you post. Moreover, remember that, first and foremost, we are hear to learn, and how easily it is to discuss. I point to Sh. Abu Ammaar's manners, who no doubt is the one with the most right to respond in this thread. Without attacking, he was able to bring up his points in a clear and polite manner, even to one of a contrary opinion.

Lastly, remember that we do not have the benefit of seeing each other or hearing the tone in ones voice, so we may misinterpret one-another's tone in a post - err on husn adh-dhaann - thinking good of your brother or sister - and avoid anything that can be misconstrued as an attack or bad manners.

This public service announcement has been brought to you by Friendly Administrative Services - supporting constructive posting practices since 2002.

[AbdulHakim]

is this authentic?

As far for scholars of the Bani Qudama calibre (ni`ma calibre `ulama
bani qudama!), al-Muwaffaq Ibn Qudama (the well known faqih) makes
tawassul in his Wasiya, where he says after talking about making
salat al-hajja:

...even if you said [during the supplication for you needs], "O,
Allah! Verily, I beseech Thee, and turn to You through your
Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), the prophet of
mercy. O, Muhammad! Verily, I turn through you to my Lord and
your Lord, Mighty and Majestic, so execute my need for me"

It was related from the Pious Predecessors that they would seek
salvation from their needs by praying two rak`at and then saying,
"O, Allah! Through You I initiate [this act], through You I seek
salvation, and to You through Your Prophet (Allah bless him and give
him peace) I turn to You. O, Allah: render the difficulties of my
affair submissive, ease its hardship, and facilitate more good for
me than I hope for, and deflect from me more evil than the evil I
fear. (Wasiyat al-Muwaffaq Ibn Qudama al-Maqdasi. Dar al-A`lam,
Damascus. 1994. pp93-94.)

[Nasir]

assalamu alikum

So by taking your statement at face value consider the christians when they pray to jesus and say oh father in the name of jesus. Or ask his mather to "pray and beg allah to fogive the sinners".

These word revealed about the followers of jesus peace b upon him supplicatring in jesus name asking jesus and asking maram for intercession

And remember when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?'" He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right to say. Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All Knower of all that is hidden and unseen. Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord', And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all thing 5:116