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Abu Ubaydah
02-14-2005, 02:53 PM
Bismillah-ir-Rahmaan-ir-Raheem,
As salaam 'alaykum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh,

When we discussed the issue in class about the requirements for the presence of Mahram in the meetings between two potential spouses leading to the Khitbah or the meetings during the Khitbah period (ref: Questionable ways of looking), we talked about what consitutes a Mahram for a brief period.

My question: Generally, or should I say culturally, when, a third person is present when the two spouses get to meet and talk the issues out, there is a sense of shyness or reluctance to be open (from both the parties). This could be a result of various things including but not limited to the nature of the person sitting there and his view on different issues etc. This may, obviously, prevent the bride or the groom from discussing some issues frankly and openly. So, how does one ensure a frank discussion in the presence of a male relative of the bride i.e. are there any provisions, from the rulings that guide interaction between two potential spouses, for this kind of a challenge?

In regards to above, I've heard that it is allowed for them to meet such that they can be seen by the Mahram but not heard i.e. the Mahram sits at some distance from the couple? Is this acceptable?

Jazakum Allahu Khairan
Was salaam 'alaykum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh

goldenhijabi
02-14-2005, 03:28 PM
Does the third person have to be a mahram to the girl or can he/she be someone else? Also, if anyone can walk into the room where the potential spouses are at any given time, does that count as khalwa?

sabirah
02-14-2005, 03:53 PM
Does the third person have to be a mahram to the girl or can he/she be someone else? Also, if anyone can walk into the room where the potential spouses are at any given time, does that count as khalwa?
as salaamu alaikum:
from my understanding in the class, shaykh Yaser, said the 3rd person HAS to be a mahram to the girl. And he said that even if 2 engaged people were in a PUBLIC restaurant, that would still be considered khalwa. but if it was for 2 ppl that had only gotten the marriage contract, but had not consumated their marriage, it would not be khalwa, until they were completely alone. hope that helped a little. :)
wAllahu alam

Abu Ubaydah
02-14-2005, 04:00 PM
Since those questions have been answered, alhamdulillah, I'm going to bring to front my intial question.

Jazakum Allahu Khairan
Was salaam 'alaykum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh

Bismillah-ir-Rahmaan-ir-Raheem,
As salaam 'alaykum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh,

When we discussed the issue in class about the requirements for the presence of Mahram in the meetings between two potential spouses leading to the Khitbah or the meetings during the Khitbah period (ref: Questionable ways of looking), we talked about what consitutes a Mahram for a brief period.

My question: Generally, or should I say culturally, when, a third person is present when the two spouses get to meet and talk the issues out, there is a sense of shyness or reluctance to be open (from both the parties). This could be a result of various things including but not limited to the nature of the person sitting there and his view on different issues etc. This may, obviously, prevent the bride or the groom from discussing some issues frankly and openly. So, how does one ensure a frank discussion in the presence of a male relative of the bride i.e. are there any provisions, from the rulings that guide interaction between two potential spouses, for this kind of a challenge?

In regards to above, I've heard that it is allowed for them to meet such that they can be seen by the Mahram but not heard i.e. the Mahram sits at some distance from the couple? Is this acceptable?

Jazakum Allahu Khairan
Was salaam 'alaykum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh

Yaser Birjas
02-14-2005, 04:38 PM
Yes, the Mahram can be at some distance as long as he can oversee and be aware of what is going on. But he has to attend part of the session.

Abu Ubaydah
02-14-2005, 04:41 PM
Yes, the Mahram can be at some distance as long as he can oversee and be aware of what is going on. But he has to attend part of the session.Jazak Allah Khair shaykh for the quick response! I hope you are feeling better, insha'Allah. :)
Was salaam 'alaykum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh

Yaser Birjas
02-14-2005, 04:43 PM
Jazak Allah Khair shaykh for the quick response! I hope you are feeling better, insha'Allah. :)
Was salaam 'alaykum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh

Trying my best insha'Allah :)

alisalaah
02-14-2005, 05:04 PM
In the case the sister is a revert and does not have a mahram would public meeting be allowed say at amasjid or so forth to discuss issues. Since an imam or what not would simply also be a non Mahram to her also.

What is the status and ettiquette of a Wali for a revert when the wali is not her mahram and how exactly (ideally) would that go in this issue?

Yaser Birjas
02-14-2005, 07:12 PM
In the case the sister is a revert and does not have a mahram would public meeting be allowed say at amasjid or so forth to discuss issues. Since an imam or what not would simply also be a non Mahram to her also.

What is the status and ettiquette of a Wali for a revert when the wali is not her mahram and how exactly (ideally) would that go in this issue?

The Imam in this case is her Wali (not necessarily a Mahram) and the wali is a position desided through following a legal hariarchy so if the father was alive then the brother cannot be the wali (though he is still a mahram). In cases like the one mentioned the Imam doesn't have to be a mahram but he is the acting wali (regent) for her.

Wallahu Aa'lam

Barakah
02-15-2005, 06:28 AM
salaam, hope someone can help me,

say if the sisters father and brothers are alive, and she doesnt believe that they are suitable walis for her (meaning they wouldnt look out for her best interests in searching for a spouse, in terms of deen etc), can she choose an imam to be her wali? will the marriage be valid without the presence of her father but just an imam as her wali?

Abu Ubaydah
02-15-2005, 09:49 AM
salaam, hope someone can help me,

say if the sisters father and brothers are alive, and she doesnt believe that they are suitable walis for her (meaning they wouldnt look out for her best interests in searching for a spouse, in terms of deen etc), can she choose an imam to be her wali? will the marriage be valid without the presence of her father but just an imam as her wali?
The rulings on Guardianships have not been discussed in class yet. Insha'Allah, it will be the next weekend.

Jazakum Allahu Khairan
Was salaam 'alaykum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh