Facing Qiblah??

[Sumiyyah]

AssalamuAlaikum,

Ok..I'm not sure about if my notes are correct regarding this issue:
Facing the back towards the Qiblah while using the restroom:

majority opinion says its not allowed while outside in the open but allowed inside due to the barriers like walls

strongest opinion (safest) is that its NOT allowed inside OR outside because there are barriers outside too (like trees) that are just like the walls inside.

Is this right...?

[HaadiAiza]

AssalamuAlaikum,

Ok..I'm not sure about if my notes are correct regarding this issue:
Facing the back towards the Qiblah while using the restroom:

majority opinion says its not allowed while outside in the open but allowed inside due to the barriers like walls

strongest opinion (safest) is that its NOT allowed inside OR outside because there are barriers outside too (like trees) that are just like the walls inside.

Is this right...?

thats what i have in my notes.

and he also said that unless the bathroom is made that way try to avoid facing or having back towards the qiblah. <---talking abt walled bathroom

[UmmSarah]

strongest opinion (safest) is that its NOT allowed inside OR outside because there are barriers outside too (like trees) that are just like the walls inside.


please note that safest does not always equal strongest... this is the safest opinion.

when giving a general legal ruling one should mention the strongest (like when a shaikh gives a general fatwa), but when giving advice or when it comes to personal practice.. safer is often the better option, wallaahu a'lam.

the reason that the indoors versus outdoors opinion may be stronger is that combining evidences should always be sought before taking one evidence over another, wallaahu a'lam.

[Sumiyyah]

please note that safest does not always equal strongest... this is the safest opinion.

when giving a general legal ruling one should mention the strongest (like when a shaikh gives a general fatwa), but when giving advice or when it comes to personal practice.. safer is often the better option, wallaahu a'lam.

the reason that the indoors versus outdoors opinion may be stronger is that combining evidences should always be sought before taking one evidence over another, wallaahu a'lam.

Well, thats why when I read this in my notes, it kind of confused me because although the majority had another opinion, He said that the STRONGEST was that BOTH inside and out were impermissible...but i didnt really get why this should be the STRINGEST opinion since no one else had this opinion and it seemed that all hadith went with the majority opinion...maybe I missed something...

ACtually the only reasoning for this opinion I have written down is kind of like Qiyas....like he said that they say when you are outside its as if you were inside (trees are barriers as if walls were barriers)...so is this the only reason this is the STRONGEST...? Seems not enough (although logically I totally agree!)..

[UmmSarah]

Well, thats why when I read this in my notes, it kind of confused me because although the majority had another opinion, He said that the STRONGEST was that BOTH inside and out were impermissible...but i didnt really get why this should be the STRINGEST opinion since no one else had this opinion and it seemed that all hadith went with the majority opinion...maybe I missed something...

ACtually the only reasoning for this opinion I have written down is kind of like Qiyas....like he said that they say when you are outside its as if you were inside (trees are barriers as if walls were barriers)...so is this the only reason this is the STRONGEST...? Seems not enough (although logically I totally agree!)..I distinctly remember the shaikh using the word "SAFEST". I don't know whether he said strongest or not but he did seem to support this opinion, wallaahu a'lam.

Let me try to remember what each side used to support their argument.

Opinion one: forbidden in and out

* Direct prohibition of Prophet (SAS) is conflicting with his action. The direct prohibition is stronger evidence. If you give back (or face) you are directly disobeying the Prophet (SAS).

* Also, perhaps the permmission to give back to ka'bah was special to Prophet (SAS).

* Barriers are always there, whether you are indoors or outdoors.

Opinion Two: forbidden out, but not in

* We should not choose one evidence over the other if they appear to conflict until we try to combine them. If they are both authentic and there is a way to combine them, then we should not disregard one of them.

* Being allowed to give the back to the qiblah while relieving oneself is probably not something that would be "special" for the Prophet (SAS).

* The issue is one of respect, a direct barrier is not the same as a tree or something way out there.

* The event where the Prophet (SAS) was seen by Ibn 'Umar happened 2 months before the Prophet's (SAS) death so the Prophet (SAS) had already given that prohibition.

* Ibn 'Umar himself, explained how the evidences can be combined in the narration of Marwan.

------------

Maybe there are more evidences that each side use.. but that's what I could remember. Personally, I feel that Sh. Ibn Baaz's fatwa (indoors versus outdoors) is stronger. However, one should try to avoid it in practice since there is no need for it anyhow and the fact that there is a difference of opinion on the issue (even among the sahaabah) gives it an element of doubt. In action, it's usually best to take the safer opinion. You can't go wrong if you don't face it.

[Sumiyyah]

I distinctly remember the shaikh using the word "SAFEST". I don't know whether he said strongest or not but he did seem to support this opinion, wallaahu a'lam.

Let me try to remember what each side used to support their argument.

Opinion one: forbidden in and out

* Direct prohibition of Prophet (SAS) is conflicting with his action. The direct prohibition is stronger evidence. If you give back (or face) you are directly disobeying the Prophet (SAS).

* Also, perhaps the permmission to give back to ka'bah was special to Prophet (SAS).

* Barriers are always there, whether you are indoors or outdoors.

Opinion Two: forbidden out, but not in

* We should not choose one evidence over the other if they appear to conflict until we try to combine them. If they are both authentic and there is a way to combine them, then we should not disregard one of them.

* Being allowed to give the back to the qiblah while relieving oneself is probably not something that would be "special" for the Prophet (SAS).

* The issue is one of respect, a direct barrier is not the same as a tree or something way out there.

* The event where the Prophet (SAS) was seen by Ibn 'Umar happened 2 months before the Prophet's (SAS) death so the Prophet (SAS) had already given that prohibition.

* Ibn 'Umar himself, explained how the evidences can be combined in the narration of Marwan.

------------

Maybe there are more evidences that each side use.. but that's what I could remember. Personally, I feel that Sh. Ibn Baaz's fatwa (indoors versus outdoors) is stronger. However, one should try to avoid it in practice since there is no need for it anyhow and the fact that there is a difference of opinion on the issue (even among the sahaabah) gives it an element of doubt. In action, it's usually best to take the safer opinion. You can't go wrong if you don't face it.

Actually I think thats the problem...he must have said, "safest" and I wrote down "strongest"...!

[Sumiyyah]

AssalamuAlaikum,

Don't mean to bring this issue up yet again....but.... ;)

UmmSarah, I have yet a THIRD opinion in my notes...
Here is what I have:

i) Hanafi; Ahmad—We can face Qiblah, because hadeeth directed at people of Madinah only : “When you go to relieve yourself or urinate, then do not face the Qiblah nor turn your back to it. Instead turn (your direction) to the east or the west.” (directed to people of Madinah)


ii)Dhahirees—Always permissible regardless if in Madina or not—Ibn ‘Umar narrated: “I ascended the roof of the house of Hafsah radiyAllaahu anha and saw the Messenger of Allaah sal Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam sitting on two bricks facing Jerusalem (Bait al-Maqdis) for relieving himself.”(this abrogates previous ruling since it came last...)

iii) Maliki; Shafi'ee; Ahmad(2)—Can turn back to Qiblah while in the house, but can not if out—Combine the above 2 prrofs (situation inside and outside); also : Marwan al-Asfar said: I saw Ibn ‘Umar make his camel kneel down facing the qiblah, then he sat down urinating in its direction. So I said: “AbdurRahman, has this not been forbidden?” He replied: “Why not, that was forbidden only in open country; but when there is something between you and the qiblah that conceals you, then there is no harm.” (Abu Dawud)


Now the SAFEST opinion would be to NOT face Qiblah while inside OR outside...yet who had this opinion? None of the three given above did...so who did???

[UmmSarah]

AssalamuAlaikum,

Don't mean to bring this issue up yet again....but.... ;)

UmmSarah, I have yet a THIRD opinion in my notes...
Here is what I have:

i) Hanafi; Ahmad—We can face Qiblah, because hadeeth directed at people of Madinah only : “When you go to relieve yourself or urinate, then do not face the Qiblah nor turn your back to it. Instead turn (your direction) to the east or the west.” (directed to people of Madinah)


ii)Dhahirees—Always permissible regardless if in Madina or not—Ibn ‘Umar narrated: “I ascended the roof of the house of Hafsah radiyAllaahu anha and saw the Messenger of Allaah sal Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam sitting on two bricks facing Jerusalem (Bait al-Maqdis) for relieving himself.”(this abrogates previous ruling since it came last...)

iii) Maliki; Shafi'ee; Ahmad(2)—Can turn back to Qiblah while in the house, but can not if out—Combine the above 2 prrofs (situation inside and outside); also : Marwan al-Asfar said: I saw Ibn ‘Umar make his camel kneel down facing the qiblah, then he sat down urinating in its direction. So I said: “AbdurRahman, has this not been forbidden?” He replied: “Why not, that was forbidden only in open country; but when there is something between you and the qiblah that conceals you, then there is no harm.” (Abu Dawud)


Now the SAFEST opinion would be to NOT face Qiblah while inside OR outside...yet who had this opinion? None of the three given above did...so who did???In my notes I have that the Hanfees view (and the narration of Ahmad) that it is FORBIDDEN in and out. ??????????????? Maybe I got it wrong.

[UmmSarah]

as for the dhaahiree opinion... maybe their usool are different. the usool ul-fiqh books i've studied seem to say that trying to combine evidences should come first before looking into the possibility of abrogation.

wallaahu a'lam

[alexandalus]

In my notes I have that the Hanfees view (and the narration of Ahmad) that it is FORBIDDEN in and out. ??????????????? Maybe I got it wrong.
The Hanafi position is that it is Makruh Tahriman whether in doors or out. See below:
In the Name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

Imam `Ala’ al-Din al-Haskafi said in his Durr al-Mukhtar, commenting on al-Tumurtashi’s Tanwir al-Absar: [note: for clarity of translation, I have translated the text and commentary as one, for flow]

“It is also prohibitively disliked to face or give one’s back to the qibla [A: that is, its direction] in order to urinate or defecate. As for cleaning one’s private parts it is not [A: prohibitively] disliked to do so.

“This is true even in buildings, because the prohibition is not conditioned.

“If one sits facing the qibla, forgetfully, and then remembers, it is recommended to turn away if possible, because of the hadith related by al-Tabari, “Whoever sits to urinate facing the qibla and then, realizing this, turns away in exaltation for it shall not leave except with his sins being forgiving.” However, if it is not possible to turn away, there is nothing wrong with it.”

[A = gloss taken from Ibn Abidin’s supercommentary, Radd al-Muhtar, on the Durr al-Mukhtar]

And Allah knows best.
Faraz Rabbani

[Sumiyyah]

The Hanafi position is that it is Makruh Tahriman whether in doors or out. See below:


JazakAllahu Khairan...I had the mistake....they do NOT allow facing Qiblah in or out...