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Old 05-21-2008, 01:03 AM   #1
muslimahKM
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urgent help!!!!!!!

Assalam-o-alaikum wa rahmatullahi wabarakatuhu!!

Well I have received this email in response to the email i sent regarding scientific miracles in Quran...so read this..and i need help in writing a response....

I don't know if it is my place to say how all of the scientific information presented in the Quran came to be, for one reason. Given the evidence earlier in the Quran and the bible regarding the universe, I don't find the passages that prove the universe to be expanding to be proof at all, both in the bible and the Quran. Why? Because they are too difficult to decipher and interpret directly. They use complex metaphor and simile that, although capable of pointing to the conclusion of an expanding universe, might also point to the conclusion of an infinite universe. Hear me out. The concept of infinity that we are all taught is a very difficult one to understand without a lot of graphical knowledge, math equations, etc. However, infinity can be easily interpreted through "a steady expansion" because, any straight lined graph steadily increases to infinity. But we now know, from recent science, that the universe indeed doesnt go to infinity, and that there is a limit, and at that limit are the first remains of the big bang, ever expanding until whatever natural limit is reached, as a point must exist where all energy runs out, and the entire universe ends in ice, or all energy is concentrated by gravity, etc., and it ends in fire. Therefore the universe isnt infinite.

But, one might look up into the sky, seeing the forever blackness, and somehow concieve the concept of infinity (with or without God's help) and only be able to describe it as a constant increasing. Perhaps even a man on some kind of narcotics (the effects of which weren't understood at the time) could dream up such a thing and tell someone about it. The choice is up to you.

But that surely isn't all. Although I don't take any sides when it comes to religion, I do feel I must back up St Paul by saying that he is not the only one who killed people and yet was still worshipped for his contributions to the church of his followers. The other person is Mohammed. Although he didn't kill his own people, he did lead many campaigns to kill others who didnt follow his rule, allowed, his men to rape and pillage the places that he destroyed. And You know, I don't really care what your motives are, people are people are people and you can't just go around killing them because they disagree with you. I hate to always bring christianity into it, but I was a christian (no longer) and I am most familiar with it... Jesus, son of God to christians and prophet to muslims, didn't kill anyone did he? But apparently he still got his point across.

And yet another thing, is that, along with any evidence in the Quran that supports current day scientifically proven knowledge, however it came to be, there is also much proof, especially in the Suras which were designed to be understood with ease, that the world is flat. Our cell phones wouldn't work in a flat world, and yet there are at least 5 different verses which refer to the world as a bed. I don't see many round beds... nope. Even beyond that, in such a huge book, there are bound to be some guesses in there that end up right. For example, the embryo one. When a baby is born it has an umbilical cord. That cord is attached to the mother from the inside. It isnt so hard to put the two together and we find that the baby hangs from the mothers womb. Hardly a scientific breakthrough, it was probably just never written down for so long because the scientific world took a long time to do research on the female body (for many different reasons) but spent a lot of time on the male one.

Lastly, is about the segregation of other religions. Religions segregate because of a difference in opinion, and Islam is not any different, for there are different Islamic sects that believe different teachings and interpret them in different ways. Shias, Kadianis, Ismaelies, all sects of a different Islam, with different rules. And most fight, just like catholics and protestants did (and still do today).

My final thought, is just the pain and suffering that organized religion causes people. The Torah, The Gospels, The Quran, all are full of death and destruction, to scare people into belief. All of them place such a huge emphasis on blind faith, and place such a damper on the most powerful ability we posess as humans: Reason. Each one of them imposes a terrible curse on all who question the authority of their religious leaders, and quite frankly, I feel the world would be a much better place without the lot of them. I do believe there is a God, I just don't think he's such a being as to give us so many different interpretations of the same thing and then allow us to fight about it. What stopped him from giving it to us straight the first time?

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Old 05-21-2008, 07:52 PM   #2
robin hudhud
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Re: urgent help!!!!!!!

asslaam a'alaikum; here are my comments on the guy's email response

Quote:
Originally Posted by muslimahKM
I don't know if it is my place to say how all of the scientific information presented in the Quran came to be, for one reason. Given the evidence earlier in the Quran and the bible regarding the universe, I don't find the passages that prove the universe to be expanding to be proof at all, both in the bible and the Quran. Why? Because they are too difficult to decipher and interpret directly. They use complex metaphor and simile that, although capable of pointing to the conclusion of an expanding universe, might also point to the conclusion of an infinite universe. Hear me out. The concept of infinity that we are all taught is a very difficult one to understand without a lot of graphical knowledge, math equations, etc. However, infinity can be easily interpreted through "a steady expansion" because, any straight lined graph steadily increases to infinity. But we now know, from recent science, that the universe indeed doesnt go to infinity, and that there is a limit, and at that limit are the first remains of the big bang, ever expanding until whatever natural limit is reached, as a point must exist where all energy runs out, and the entire universe ends in ice, or all energy is concentrated by gravity, etc., and it ends in fire. Therefore the universe isnt infinite.
The Quran does not support the universe being infinite because the universe will be destroyed on the Day of Judgement. This guy is just putting his own meaning into the verse and using that as refutation. Oh, and he is indirectly claiming to be knowledgeable on tafseer, even though he probably knows zero Arabic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muslimahKM
But, one might look up into the sky, seeing the forever blackness, and somehow concieve the concept of infinity (with or without God's help) and only be able to describe it as a constant increasing. Perhaps even a man on some kind of narcotics (the effects of which weren't understood at the time) could dream up such a thing and tell someone about it. The choice is up to you.
So he is essentially saying that the prophet s.a.w. was a lunatic, wa li'authabillah -- same thing Quraish said about him; same thing that is mentioned today by some people. The Quran talks about this claim a lot, and I'm sure the refutation is easy (I don't know the ayat off my head). InshaAllah can someone else please explicitly mention the refutation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by muslimahKM
But that surely isn't all. Although I don't take any sides when it comes to religion, I do feel I must back up St Paul by saying that he is not the only one who killed people and yet was still worshipped for his contributions to the church of his followers. The other person is Mohammed. Although he didn't kill his own people, he did lead many campaigns to kill others who didnt follow his rule, allowed, his men to rape and pillage the places that he destroyed. And You know, I don't really care what your motives are, people are people are people and you can't just go around killing them because they disagree with you. I hate to always bring christianity into it, but I was a christian (no longer) and I am most familiar with it... Jesus, son of God to christians and prophet to muslims, didn't kill anyone did he? But apparently he still got his point across.
He is saying a distorted version of the truth, mixed and diluted with lies. One could go over the finer details of Islamic history and show that that was not the case, but that depends on the situation. Also, 'Isa a.s. had a different shari'ah than Muhammad s.a.w., so why should it matter if 'Isa never fought battles? What matters is that they (the prophets) all preached tawheed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muslimahKM
And yet another thing, is that, along with any evidence in the Quran that supports current day scientifically proven knowledge, however it came to be, there is also much proof, especially in the Suras which were designed to be understood with ease, that the world is flat. Our cell phones wouldn't work in a flat world, and yet there are at least 5 different verses which refer to the world as a bed. I don't see many round beds... nope. Even beyond that, in such a huge book, there are bound to be some guesses in there that end up right. For example, the embryo one. When a baby is born it has an umbilical cord. That cord is attached to the mother from the inside. It isnt so hard to put the two together and we find that the baby hangs from the mothers womb. Hardly a scientific breakthrough, it was probably just never written down for so long because the scientific world took a long time to do research on the female body (for many different reasons) but spent a lot of time on the male one.
Subhanallah, this guy is more arrogant that I thought. He claims that, supposedly, 5 ayat are wrong, but he doesn't mention a single one. Even if he does mention particular ayas, this all goes back to the first point about him knowing zero tafseer, zero Arabic.... and does he even know much science? What are his qualifications? And about the womb of the mother, he is ignoring the parts of the ayah that explicitly mention the stages of fetal development (surat al-Hajj, 5).

Quote:
Originally Posted by muslimahKM
Lastly, is about the segregation of other religions. Religions segregate because of a difference in opinion, and Islam is not any different, for there are different Islamic sects that believe different teachings and interpret them in different ways. Shias, Kadianis, Ismaelies, all sects of a different Islam, with different rules. And most fight, just like catholics and protestants did (and still do today).
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi addressed this point quite heavily in his LOG class. It's the people that have problems, not the religion. The people adhering to that religion are choosing to divide, are choosing to act irrationally, etc. There was only one version of Islam that the prophet s.a.w. brought, so of course that is the version we are expected to follow. Any divisions thereafter are purely man-made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muslimahKM
My final thought, is just the pain and suffering that organized religion causes people. The Torah, The Gospels, The Quran, all are full of death and destruction, to scare people into belief. All of them place such a huge emphasis on blind faith, and place such a damper on the most powerful ability we posess as humans: Reason. Each one of them imposes a terrible curse on all who question the authority of their religious leaders, and quite frankly, I feel the world would be a much better place without the lot of them. I do believe there is a God, I just don't think he's such a being as to give us so many different interpretations of the same thing and then allow us to fight about it. What stopped him from giving it to us straight the first time?
Again, addressed in LOG class. Anything that happens in this world has a wisdom behind it, even if it appears to be "bad" on the surface. Even the creation of shaitan has a wisdom. And it also goes back to the previous point, that it is the people who start corrupt wars, not the religions themselves. Furthermore, the wars they start are motivated by politics, money, and other worldly things.
And there is no blind faith in Islam. There is reasoning. But at the same time, we are expected to believe in certain unseen things (Allah, heaven, hell, angels, etc.). That is the whole point of the test. If we had the ability to see all these things now, then there would be no test! It would be pointless.
And God did give it to us straight. It is the people who make it crooked and then deceive other people with it. If a person wants guidance, then Allah will guide him. If a person doesn't care for the truth, then Allah s.w.t. can seal his heart and make it blind.


That is all I have time to say for now. If you benefitted from these words, then it is by the grace of Allah s.w.t. I'm sure I missed some things, and inshaAllah others on the forum can add to it.... and I am very hungry right now, which could impair judgement

wasalaam,
Yaseen
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وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ قَوْلًا مِّمَّن دَعَا إِلَى اللَّهِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا وَقَالَ إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ

Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness, and says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"? (Fussilat 33)
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:38 AM   #3
muslimahKM
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Re: urgent help!!!!!!!

Jazakallahukhiarun brother Yaseen for your very beneficial response. I am reading some material to write an effective response. When I first started talking to this person regarding faith and religion, I thought he was reasonable until I sent an email (which was again a response to his) that asked him to reason why 1400+ years ago such discoveries were in Quran and other facts...so he replies back with this...His reply was totally not related to what I had sent...Seemed to me more like he was coming up with any kind of argument to prove that Islam cannto be true is any way. ( I get a feeling that he just browsed through some hate sites and got this info...lol...Allahualam)
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:11 PM   #4
robin hudhud
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Re: urgent help!!!!!!!

wa iyakum. I'd like to point out another thing

Sheikhs Yasir Qadhi and Abu Aaliyah have some lectures called "Refuting Attacks Against Islam". They are available at the audioislam website. (under heading 'Muslim Identity' --> da'wah). They are geared towards understanding the mentality and arguments of orientalists and philosophers who bash Islam, as well as refutations for those arguments.
According to one lecture by sheikh Yasir, all accusations against the prophet s.a.w. fall into one of four categories: 1) he was a poet 2) he was a madman 3) he was a magician, and I think the 4th was liar. Even 1400 years since the prophet s.a.w., no one has made a new accusation other than these four, and the Quran addresses all 4 of these and replies to them. You could listen to these lectures and gain much benefit inshaAllah. (I think it's lectures 7-9 that address these specifically)
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وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ قَوْلًا مِّمَّن دَعَا إِلَى اللَّهِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا وَقَالَ إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ

Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness, and says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"? (Fussilat 33)
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Old 05-31-2008, 02:16 AM   #5
muslimahKM
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Re: urgent help!!!!!!!

Okay so I wrote a reply to him and heres how he replied back.

No problems with delayed response. Thank you for continuing to provide me with information about islam, because I don't know many muslims (in the sense of people following islam I mean)so it is a rarity.

Onto things...

Firstly, to say that I have taken something out of context in the Quran is a poor statement to make because of the Quran itself. I mean, the entire reason I tried to show the same verse in a different light is to show that there is certainly more than one way to interpret everything. I do not necessarily believe either interpretation, just I am showing that different views are possible. Whether the Quran denounces an absolute universe somewhere else or not is none of my concern as I am (or am becoming) an engineer, and no matter how good the middle or sides of a bridge I build are, if the whole thing isnt solid, it will fall down. End of story. Here's an example of contradiction though...



Quran 2: 29 It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….

Quran 79: 27 - 30 Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth


On demonstrates earth created before heaven, the other heaven before earth... but neither say a thing about universe expansion... hmmm....

As far as english is concerned it is a flawed language, very true, although I am quite certain that arabic is flawed too (as it must be, made by man). However, if the translation of the Quran into english is so poor that I am capable of misinterpreting parts of it, then this discussion shouldnt be happening because translators are doing a poor job supplying me with english versions of the Quran, and even god/allah himself needs to intervene and rewrite it for us in english. If a paragraph is needed to describe each word in arabic (though I suspect that is significant exageration. A sentence per word would be more reasonable for even the most descriptive language)Then a paragraph should be written. I don't want the condensed version. However, I have no intent to learn arabic, as engineering is my discipline right now, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as far as english interpretations are concerned.


As far as Muhammad being a killer, what about the genocide of Banu Quraiza? The verse goes:

And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.

The historical evidence is there too, that Islams following Muhammad went into this tribe of Jews and killed all the males who had pubic hair, and captured the rest. Regardless of the reasoning behind it, it's still genocide. Has every other religion done the same at some point? Most likely, the major ones have for sure. So it doesnt set Islam on a pedestal above the rest. However their greatest prophet endorsed it did he not?

And as far as my sources are concerned, I use a site run by former Islam believers who have defected because they saw through the problems with the Quran.

Although I do feel that you must be frustrated about things that I have said (which I intend to back up in a moment) I don't think it's in the spirit of any discussion to call your opponent ignorant. I mean, I'm not just some joe shmoe who believes everything the western news, hell, I don't even watch the news because they are far too bias! I don't even believe everything I read, especially not a book just because it's "made by god" I check my sources through mutliple websites, books, etc. But since you have memorized the Quran I figured you would know which verses I keep refering to. Here they are.

Sura Al-Kahf (18:47): And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.

Sura Taha (20:53) : Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation.

Sura Az-Zukhruf (43:10) : Who has made for you the earth like a bed, and has made for you roads therein, in order that you may find your way.

Sura Az-Zukhruf (43:38): Till, when (such a one) comes to Us, he says [to his Qarîn (Satan / devil companion)] "Would that between me and you were the distance of the two easts (or the east and west)" a worst (type of) companion (indeed)!

Sura An-Naba (78:6) :Have We not made the earth as a bed,

Sura An-Naziat (79:30) : And after that He spread the earth;


I got nothing on the embryononic development atm, still looking, though your information there looks quite accurate. Score wone for the Quran.

I was pointing out segregation in Islam to counter your point claiming that there are a lot of different sects of christianity. Who is to say which one is the most correct but God himself. To fight about it is foolish and nonsensical. You may say it is the one that most devoutly follows their holy book, but as we can see from the Torah, bible and Quran, things change over time (hence 3 books with a similiar but altered message)

And as far as Im concerned, remove the religion and the prayer, worship, tradition, and, most importantly, the power structure, then teach human beings morality, then you'll have the same end result (just nowhere to go when you die. Thats fine by me).

And as far as reasoning goes, I'm doing so right now. And frankly, there isn't one religion out there, islam included, that logically makes sense to me. So I figure, if there is a God, and it is allah as is claimed in the Quran, then he'll understand when I get to heaven and say that the Quran just didnt make sense to me. It's not like Im rejecting it for the sake of rejecting it, it just doesnt make sense.
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Last edited by muslimahKM; 05-31-2008 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 05-31-2008, 07:35 AM   #6
Sally Mahmoud
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Re: urgent help!!!!!!!

sigh..

i remember engaging in similar discussions with another student in college...also on the same topic.. i remember he siad that just b/c there maybe some scientific miracles in the Quran doesn't logically point to a certain God or that Islam is the religion.. i couldn't figure out what he meant about the logical connection and.. i had done my bit of the exchange and figured the rest is up to Allah!

i think this guy is not clear on the fact that God didn't create us just so we can be moral beings, live, procreate, and die.. he created us to worship him...we can't just do away with the tenants of the religion, and keep the interaction stuff to live by..

it seems to me that this guy is one of those who are so turned off by organized religion that what they expect to be divine are "wishful-thinking" concepts like "God is Love.." and how we shouldn't kill people.. I think he wants so badly to believe in goodness and pacifism that he can't fathom the struggle that ensues once one commits to a religion (spiritually), and commits to spreading it (as in the example of the prophet salAllah alaih wsalam) which historically has involved force. In fact, societies still believe in using force to achieve results.. we call it war!

In any case, the actions of the prophet were inspired by God, so if he used force, or if he did anything we should remember that it was not out of his own will that he did things. In addition, this was 1400+ yrs ago. How many revolutions, enlightenments and renaissances have occured since then that have influenced our (western) thinking today? a ton! So if this dude thinks he can judge the actions of a historical figure, from a foreign land, based on the illusion he wants so badly to be true (God is love, let's have peace on earth)... then all i can say is may Allah guide him.. b/c that is not reasonable. i see that he's trying to search and learn, and reflect (as it commands in the Quran).. so I'm gonna keep him in my duaas!
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Old 06-04-2008, 05:28 PM   #7
muslimahKM
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Re: urgent help!!!!!!!

Yes Sally it is really sad. Jazakallah for your advice. But personally I feel that he is not trying to search and learn. Because whatever information I send or book I have given him regarding Quran and Science and others, he does not read them and it reflects on his ignorant emails. LIke he said, he takes his information from a website created by exmuslims, which is very dangerous.
I would really appreciate if you all help me write a response to this. Insha'allah.
May Allah guide us all ameen.
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Old 06-04-2008, 07:35 PM   #8
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Re: urgent help!!!!!!!

If he isn't reading/listening to the things you send him then it doesn't really seem like he's doing all he can to understand. He just seems to be stuck in his ever repeating thoughts and no matter what you say, will try to do as Sally said and find anything wrong to pick at. And ask why he goes to an exmuslims site if he wants to learn about Islam. That makes no sense. Why not at least check actual Islamic sites to see what their side of the argument is rather than staying in the same corner? I say urge him to check out some other sites and tell him to read the books. Otherwise you'll be wasting your time by giving it to him when he doesn't seem as earnest as he says he is.
Wallah A'lam.
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:28 AM   #9
robin hudhud
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Re: urgent help!!!!!!!

(Actually, if it was me, I would not give up on him; he acknowledged the embryo thing, and alhamdulilah that is a step forward; here are some thoughts) :

Ok, since he’s all bent on playing the engineer card, let’s take the logic approach….

With the existence of god, I love what sheikh Bilal Philips says --- believing that this universe came from a big bang without a creator is like saying the following: you have a junkyard with scrap metal, plastic, etc., and you drop a bomb on it, and it explodes. It is like saying that this explosion will produce a 1984 Cadillac with the keys in the ignition, or a refrigerator, or a toaster oven, or whatever. Any person knows that, no matter how many bombs you drop on the junkyard, you will never get a Cadillac. The car is way too complex for it to have been the product of random collisions. The same goes for the universe. The matter of this universe is so incredibly complex, fine-tuned, and specifically ordered, and he must know that as an engineer!! Planets orbiting the sun, clouds arriving overhead to deliver water that we need, photosynthesis in plants, even the construct of unicellular organisms, and on and on….


My purpose is not to defend every single verse one-by-one, (even though I know they are true). However, I am trying to show that the Quran contains things which could not have been written by a man 1400 years ago. One of these things is the embryo thing, and he acknowledged it! If he wants to learn more about these things, he should go to the islam-guide website "A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam." (google search "islam-guide", it's the first link) This is one reason why I believe in the Quran, despite these supposed contradictions he brings up.

Anything having to do w/ verse interpretation, he should go ask a person of knowledge, not me. I am not a scholar of tafseer, and that is not my goal in formulating this response to him. The answers are there with the scholars and not with me, or with ignorant laypeople who apostated. Plus, I just don't have the time to give a thorough response to those.


wallahu a'alam
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Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness, and says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"? (Fussilat 33)
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Old 06-09-2008, 08:50 PM   #10
muslimahKM
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Re: urgent help!!!!!!!

Jazakallahukhairun for your reply and advice everyone!!
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